D&D Hack Via PBTA

#21

That’s an interesting discussion - he seems to find many of the same things I do undesirable in 5E (combat focus most glaringly) but then comes at them entirely differently then I do. Rather then impose goal based XP, which always risks being ‘satisfy the GM based XP’ as far as I’m concerned have you considered how simply using Treasure based XP would work?

5E can be fairly easily modified to different play styles - but I bet if you play with the local 5E crowd your biggest obstacle will be the ethics of play, or playstyle itself - the contemporary trad game ethos seems very devoted to both a sort of power gaming and pre-determined story which can provide climactic moments and smooth progression in short sessions designed around streaming. Combat is favored as its perceived as exciting/dramatic, puzzle solving disfavored because it’s slow (and largely replaced with a thankfully easy to drop skill check system) and role playing frequently reduced to funny voiced plot advancing cut scenes.

The system though is sound and pretty adaptable - I don’t know exactly what you want to to play like but I managed to twist it into a classic Dungeon Crawl system with high risk, grimly gonzo aesthetics and lots of scheming fairly easily because that’s the sort of game the two previous players at the table had played and their Ethos of Play infected the new ones.

#22

Do you know which aspects of DnD that the players expect? I believe that their expectations will very much affect the success of your game session. If they are lured in by “let’s play DnD!” and it turns out it doesn’t match the expectations that are produced by critical role, then you might have no chance to win them over into playing your way at all. Is there any way you can try to get an overview of what they expect? Otherwise I suggest you just play Dnd as written and then gradually suggest a different path over time (if that’s an option at all).

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#23

All great points and I’ll look up the link above.

I don’t know what to expect other than my group didn’t really happen, yet the other D&D centric meetups go off. Games fill up and have waiting lists. So, I want some of that action.

Previously, one of D&Ds core rules were that GMs can break the rules whenever they want to. Fine. So, I’ll start with that rule. I get the impression that most of the people have know idea what D&D is, so I’ll definitely find out ahead of time what their expectations are and I’m going to need to start watching critical role.

I have played D&D enough in my past that I know I could run it now, given my experience with story games, and pull it in my direction, especially now, with what everyone is saying about 5e.

I will, grit my teeth, start playing it as is, and go from there. But, I’m also looking for some solid hacks.

Finally, as I type this, my D&D startup kit just hit the doorstep.

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#24

Just as an FYI: Critical Role, AFAIK is like 80% the DM talking. If you want something to model off of I might suggest Court of Swords. But TBH I have not watched either much and only really know from other people.

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#25

Another thought, from a different angle:

If the issue is that you’re posting a less well known game on a meetup and people aren’t signing up, I’d consider doing it the other way around. Meet people first, and then pitch the game.

Maybe run D&D, maybe just sign up for some other people’s games. Then see who you click with and, now that they know you somewhat, invite them to play a different game with you. You might get more takers that way!

Like I said above, what you’re doing is not guaranteed to fail - some have succeeded! - but it often ends in serious frustration. (I’ve witnessed a few people go down this route.)

The link, above, is one of the success stories.

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#26

Awesome. Thank you!

Now to find a good abstract wealth hack…

#27

That’s a good quick overview.

I’m not necessarily saying he got the idea from me (no idea!), but I started some conversations around using 2d20 and PbtA-style moves about five years ago over here:

@Alejandro, you might enjoy this discussion, since it includes a lot of ways to “cross the streams” between D&D and PbtA technologies.

On the larger topic, I think the conundrum of story/character-driven play and using the current, most popular iteration of D&D is a really interesting one. I have yet to see any really compelling examples, although there are certainly D&D games out there which churn out great stories.

Critical Role is worth checking out, if you have the patience for streaming play, because there are some beautiful character and roleplaying moments in there. But it’s definitely not player-driven “story game” play; rather, that GM and that group have gotten really good at creating something like a Marvel superhero movie with D&D tropes. It wouldn’t scratch my “story game” itch at all to play a game like that (mainly due to lack of player agency/input), but I do find parts of Critical Role quite inspiring in terms of what you can do to really explore “off the shelf” D&D in the pursuit of an exciting, dramatic superhero-esque narrative. (I can point to a specific “arc”/point of entry if that would help.)

I don’t know if it’s a solvable conundrum; it’s rather a question of how far you’re willing to lower your standards (and how much you can stomach doing D&D prep) to meet the game’s expectations somewhere halfway. Like I said, I haven’t really seen anyone succeed yet, with the possible exception of Deliverator (the link, above).

I have some other story gamer friends who tried the same thing and ended up gravitating towards GM-led adventure play (as the modern D&D rules and play culture tends to swing) or OSR-style challenge-based play; it was less frustrating for them to just embrace what the game does and what players expect than to keep trying to do something else with it.

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#28

@Alejandro, is there any chance you’re the person who was working on a game called “unWritten” about ten years ago? I remember it was a pretty exciting design, and always wondered where it ended up.

#29

Yes, that’s me! Where did you hear about unWritten? Holy shit. That’s exciting.

I started playing it again about 9 months ago, after a 10 year (?) hiatus, from gaming in general.

I’d say unWriiten is somewhere between 75 and 90% done. Mostly, it’s not completely written with proper examples and such. Basically, you need me at the table to play it. But, I’ve been having the same successful fun games after 20 years of not playing.

#30

Are you Paul Tevis? If so, I didn’t know you ever played it.

#31

Ha! No, I’m not Paul Tevis. But we had lots of discussions about the game ten years ago, because I had a very similar game (called “Land of Nodd”). You sent me a draft at some point!

e.g.

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#32

Haha! Wow, that’s exciting. I barely remember this conversation. But I do remember Land of Nodd. What happened with that?

#33

Dude, I’m beside myself that you remember. That is so flattering.

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#34

To bring things back to the topic at hand, another useful thing to consider is the old “E6” hack for D&D:

It’s written for 3rd Ed, but I think you should be able to apply much of it without modification, especially the “Raising the Stakes” technique.

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#35

@Alejandro, my game (Land of Nodd) is in exactly the same situation as yours! But let’s take that to private messages or another thread. Cheers!

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#36

Next-Level Skill Checks takes the “partial success” concept and applies it to D&D skill checks. https://www.dmsguild.com/product/255025/NextLevel-Skill-Checks

From the same publisher, Hearts and Arrows has rules for love and romance. Not exactly PBTA but it could steer D&D into a more narrative direction. https://www.dmsguild.com/product/266220/Hearts-and-Arrows-Rules-options-for-love--romance?src=by_author_of_product

#37

Have you looked at Beyond the Wall? It doesn’t have the PbtA stuff in terms of mechanics since it’s quite firmly a DnD clone, but it DOES have an explicit focus on being story/character driven, and the players and GM work together in the worldbuilding etc.
The character creation is very much PbtA-ish as if they are playbooks, which is one of my favorite things about it.
Definitely worth checking out

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#38

Ok… So… This guy ->

Made an argument that, like xtianity has many forms (Catholicism, Mormonism, Protestantism) so does D&D, so long as the game features what is core to D&D. So, to him, Pathfinder is as much D&D as 3.5e as 5e. That’s obvious, but given his logic, I would argue that Dungeon World is as much D&D as Red Box is. His argument is within the first 3 to 5 minutes of the video.

So, as of right now, I declare his declaration correct and binding (can I do that? I think I just did that.)

However, where he drifts toward a more OSR type of style, I want to drift toward a more story-gamey style. His argument makes me feel comfortable with serious drift.

Thank you all for your suggestions and recommendations. I do not think this topic should be closed, because there is still a lot to be discussed and I find that discussion enjoyable.

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#39

But, please tell us, how it went :blush:

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#40

This is going to be a quick reply just because nobody brought it up thus far: you may want to have a look at Vagabonds of Dyfed, which attempts to do OSR-style D&D within a PbtA framework. I used it to run a 4-session series set in Qelong with some success. Ultimately I abandoned it for The Black Hack because I found its core mechanic – which has you pick from traits for each roll – rather cumbersome. But still, it might resemble what you’re looking for to some degree.

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