PbtA games and player cleverness

My impression is that “skipping the planning stage” is considered a feature in Blades in the Dark, not a bug. (In fact, it might be the game’s central selling point, to many.) Does the game’s structure or rules give any support for when a group does want to do the planning?

As I understand the rules to work, and from the text copied above, “don’t make a plan! just roll!” does seem to be a natural interpretation. And, yes, that certainly does (quite intentionally) bypass “player cleverness”, replacing it with a very different kind of process, where the dice tell you when you get to invent cool stuff (“Aha! I’d already planned for this, and had a contingency in place! I get to narrate how!”).

However, I am not a Blades expert by any means - this is just my general understanding of the game.

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It’s definitely a feature. But that doesn’t mean that “Don’t make a plan, just roll!” is correct or following the rules.

The game states that in order to move the game to “score mode”, the players need to both:

  • Choose a plan – Assault, Deception, Stealth, etc.
    AND
  • Provide the Detail for the plan – Each plan type requires a specific detail to go with it. Stealth Plan requires the Point of Infiltration. An Occult Plan requires the Arcane Method. A transport plan requires the Route and the Means.

So if the GM is saying “just make a roll and we’ll see what happens” he’s doing it wrong. On multiple levels, since once the score plan and detail have been provided, the Engagement Roll is made by the GM, not the players. Similarly, “What is your Move?” in Blades is like asking the players how many Hitpoints they have. Blades doesn’t have Moves, and asking players what their “Move” is is…not Blades play.

In terms of removing planning also removing “player cleverness” honestly, I disagree. What this removes is wasted player cleverness. You never spend two hours making a plan for how to deal with Knuckles Mulligan only to discover that he’s not even in town during the score. There is still tons of room for player cleverness in the moment, and it’s pretty much always preferable to using Flashbacks, because Flashbacks immediately apply a cost unless they’re super obvious “Oh yeah duh I would have done that.” AND flashbacks still have a chance to fail if they would normally have a chance to fail, so taking clever actions that don’t require you to get into a risky situation and make a roll is still absolutely to the players advantage. It just means that they are planning for a situation they know, not a situation they are imagining. To a small extent, it does remove the cleverness of bringing exactly the right items with you. Unless the items in question are special or unusual, in which case you still need to acquire them normally.

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This is exactly what the GM was denying. “Oh, the people at the party are getting suspicious… we should split up and move to other rooms of the mansion, be more subtle about…” And “Sounds like you are making X action roll… roll it” interrupts the GM. Literally no chance to impact the fiction at all unless we rolled dice… pushed the “That requires a Flashback” quite heavily… which we failed regularly.

In short, in five minutes, I the player came up with a ten times better course of action than our supposed “expert criminal characters” did all evening. By forcing everything to be an action roll, the characters ended up as the Three Stooges, not Ocean’s 11. (Because if we rolled a success, we gained the barest progress… but if rolled a failure, the events hammered us. Generally it was an awful play experience all around. The GM heavy handed interpretation of “mechanics over player input” just exacerbated it.

(Yes, I mispoke with “what move”… it was “what action roll”… but the idea is the same. )

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This is literally breaking the rules. Even if we ignore “If their action is something that we’d expect them
to simply accomplish, then we don’t make an action roll.” (Pretty standard stuff there) the first two steps in the procedure for making an Action Roll are:

  1. The player states their goal for the action.
  2. The player chooses the action rating.

So I’m just going to sum up my point here: This is not the result of a “very literal interpretation of PbtA style Move play” or indeed, a very literal interpretation of anything. This is the result of the GM not following the rules.

I’m sorry you had a bad experience with Blades – it sounds well and truly sucky – but that’s the result of the GM not following the rules, not the result of the GM following them too literally.

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Coming in a bit late, but this post inspired me to write something, so I thought I might as well share.

It has partial success, but there is no roll to it.

It is I think more of a classic design though, not something novel. It’s more of codifying what OSR does with the moves language of pbta games.

Disarm a trap
GM, every trap has one or more vulnerabilities. Decide on some in advance, or do it on the fly. Players might discover other vulnerabilities that you didn’t think of.

Whenever the players come across a trap, reveal the trigger, but don’t reveal it’s vulnerability. The players can ask questions about the trap, interact with it(but not trigger it), try to learn about it. But you must never tell them directly what the vulnerability is. Just tell them what they observe.

Players, when you try to solve the trap, you also risk triggering it. Detail your plan. GM, help them clarify and referee their plan. For each vulnerability they exploit, they hold 1.
Spend each hold on the following :

  • No one gets hurt. If you don’t choose this, either someone or everyone gets hurt, depending on the trap.
  • Enemies are not alerted to your location.
  • You learn everything about the trap, so you can use it against your enemies.

Example vulnerabilities are slowness, specific timing, breakable, operated by someone and so on.

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Hmm, I’m not sure I quite get what is being meant. By player cleverness here. I think PBTA certainly helps engage player creativity by putting a lot of the power of how successful ability uses affect the world in the player’s hands.

In a trad success/fail system the results of a success or failure (crit, fumble, etc) are very rarely in the hands of the player. They’re either proscribed by the game mechanics, or determined by the GM. In PBTA in contrast the results of a hit, even a marginal hit, are very often entirely within the control of the player. Often in the form of “hold x, spend your hold to do these things”. Even for act under pressure, the MC offers you a choice of three different options. Whenever it’s reasonable to do so it’s the player selecting an outcome.

In trad games in contrast there are two ways a player can influence the course of events. One is through choices and RP outside the purview of the rules. The other is in the choice of which rules to engage, but once a rule is a engaged that’s where the player’s input often ends. Cleverness in that respect comes from knowing the game mechanics and understanding the optimal rules to engage and how they interact. Often those choices are actually made during character generation and levelling up as well, not during play,

So I don’t really see how PBTAs disincentivise or obstruct player creativity. My experience, and why I love them so much as a GM and a player, is they engage players in the progress of the game far more than trad systems. More tools and choices in the hands of players is what they’re all about.

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The way I have understood this particular topic - and this could be just my own understanding, of course - is that there is a distinction being made between player cleverness and player creativity.

Creativity is about having interesting ideas and bringing them into play. As you point out, PbtA mechanics tend to support this in all kinds of ways. (All player-empowering and “yes, but” favouring mechanics do this indirectly, but PbtA moves sometimes do so much more overtly even than that.)

Cleverness, here, I think, is being defined in relation to challenge and conflict. In the sense of, “can you be clever enough to win?”

These are, admittedly, overlapping concepts, but for many players there is a strong preference.

For example, in an OSR game you might be give 3d6 gold and asked to buy equipment. If you bought the right stuff and you were prepared, you’ll be more likely to overcome challenges later! The “cleverness” of the player is being employed and tested.

In many PbtA games, the rule might be something like “Hold 3. Spend a hold later to declare that you have just the thing you need”. This engages player creativity (you need to come up with some colourful description of a useful item you brought along), but not necessarily cleverness (since even the slowest player can spend the hold and say they have a hammer when they see a nail, in theory). For some people, this kind of design trend matters a great deal. (It has to do with the underlying creative desires which bring us to the table in the first place.)

If you’re concerned about the overlap, think of something like this: I spend 1 Hold to have “just the right thing”. But I can’t think of a good example of an item that’s useful! Is this a failure of player cleverness? Possibly. But I think that in a game of this style there is generally the presumption that the mechanical impact of the move is felt - generally, we might, as a group, help you brainstorm something (“Hey, Joe, maybe your guy brought a hammer, that would help, right?”), and that’s not seen as a failure on the part of the player but just a momentary hitch to move past.

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Thanks that’s a useful distillation of the point. I agree that’s true to some degree. Torchbearer is an extreme example of this with it’s ultra-detailed inventory management system.

I don’t think there’s a clear dividing line between creativity and cleverness. There’s plenty of clever tricks and manoeuvres you can pull using AW moves. To me PBTAs, particularly AW and games close to it, feel a lot more like playing Runequest than playing most OSR games with their relatively unsophisticated combat mechanics. RQ gives you a lot of different options in combat you can use to come up with clever tactics, whereas once combat starts in most OSR games it turns into a repetitive hit point attrition slog or characters just triggering the same special abilities over and over.

I think it could be pretty interesting to adapt the move mechanics to a simulationist combat system. You could easily use the Torchbearer inventory system with move based combat There’s nothing about the move structure that inherently makes them fiction first either, and in fact many of them aren’t. When you Read a Sitch you don’t ask your questions then roll to get answers, you ask the questions after you have rolled. That’s not fiction first, it’s just moving some of the discretion about outcomes out of the hands of the GM and into those of the player.

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Those are some good points, as well. I’ve noticed that OSR fans and games tend to have a different focus than more “modern” designs: the particular kind of player cleverness they are interested in has more to do with risk management, puzzle-solving, and lateral thinking. Finding a clever way to rig a trap, perhaps, or a smart strategy for dealing with two opposing factions within a dungeon. The “cleverness” involved in system mastery or finessing the rules isn’t really part of that aesthetic.

So it’s possible that, in a conversation like this, that kind of dichotomy is coming into play. The way a PbtA move like Visions of Death empowers a player is more about rule application than lateral thinking - this one of the features of PbtA design, actually, how the rules are usually/often designed to empower player input.

Your notes on “Read a Sitch” are spot on, in that sense:

I think that PbtA moves operate in a pretty particular space. Some are highly “fiction-first”, in the session that a fictional action or stance triggers the application of the rule. This is no different from many/most old-school game mechanics, which can, in fact, be rewritten in a PbtA move “format”; both are distinct in this sense from rules which operate around explicit conflict resolution or framing (as in, say, Primetime Adventures or Dogs in the Vineyard or Hillfolk). Other moves, though, are about giving a particular type of input to the game for the players (a good example is a move like Reputation, which effectively enables a player to declare some backstory with an NPC). So, as you say, moves operate in different ways, and bridge this dichotomy in many ways.

I do think - as I think I wrote about - that the ternary resolution used in most PbtA contexts is not ideal for “player cleverness”. They tend to provide guaranteed impact and choice to characters, no matter how “foolish” the player (e.g. the GM doesn’t get to name a higher difficulty level for your seduce/manipulate roll), and, also, tend to produce complications and difficulties no matter how “clever” the player (you’ll most often roll 7-9, anyway). This isn’t ideal for the kind of game which should hinge on “player cleverness”.

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This is what continues to bug me about this discussion; If the OSR’s version of “player cleverness” is, essentially, “How do you avoid triggering the rules” then it almost doesn’t matter what kind of system you using, as long as it doesn’t have rules for so much stuff that it becomes impossible to avoid triggering them. (Lots of skill based games have this ‘problem’); And PbtA games tend to have quite a large space to maneuver in without triggering any rules.

So once again, I’m going to reiterate that I don’t think there is anything stopping a PbtA game from leaning into this kind of thing, it’s just that they’re generally designed with other goals in mind.

I don’t think that’s what “Fiction first” means. In order to read a sitch, you need to explain what your character is doing to get a read on things. That’s the “fiction” that has to come first. The asking of questions isn’t fiction at all – your character isn’t literally saying “Which enemy is the biggest threat?”; They’re scanning the fracas and watching who is doing what while trying not to get caught up in things.

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Sure. I see no contradiction between “there isn’t anything stopping a PbtA game from leaning into this kind of thing” and “they’re generally designed with other goals in mind, so they don’t enable that very well”. Why not! We could make OSR games that are about personal, intimate family relationships, too, after all.

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I did say “generally” though and cite Vagabonds of Dyfed as a PbtA that is designed in this direction. It’s a “nonstandard” one, though there’s not really much that is ‘standard’ in PbtA these days anyway, so I start to feel like this discussion isn’t really going anywhere.

People have a tendency to rule out the games that do exactly this as “not what they think of as PbtA” or something.

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In terms of design, is it meaningfully distinct from Freebooters on the Frontier?

If so, in what ways? What aspects of the design support player cleverness more than other PbtA designs?

I will reiterate my point from earlier:

We can debate in the abstract all day long. Throw down some examples, instead, and then we can have a real conversation!

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Vagabonds of Dyfed is a tag-based PbtA game (like City of Mist to some extent), and as such it doesn’t have “stats” at all. It also eschews playbooks and specific moves for a World of Dungeons style “all purpose move” where you check your tags and roll, aiming for the usual 3 PbtA success brackets.

It has this to say about itself: “This game is as much, if not more so, about challenging the players as it is about creating a shared story.”

It’s a PbtA game built with OSR sensibilities. I don’t really know what else to tell you there, because honestly, I don’t think OSR games are “Designed” to reward player cleverness so much as PLAYED to reward player cleverness.

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The reason I ask about this is that Freebooters on the Frontier has, as far as I can tell, the exact same design goal and specs. We talked about it earlier in this thread.

And according to the designers themselves, this is not what the design does.

Here is the post:

Again, I think this conversation would get a lot further by discussing specific moves, mechanics, or design features, rather than this back-and-forth. Let’s dig into something! If you think Vagabonds does this particularly well, share some part of the game you think illustrates this well and let’s look at it. :slight_smile:

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That’s the thing; I don’t know that it does it “particularly well” because to be honest, I don’t know ANY games that do it ‘particularly well’. I don’t have a lot of interest in this sort of play, in part because it so often seems to center around “Dungeon robber” activities, and most of the time when I see people talking about it, all they really seem to want is “rules that get out of the way” – which generally means “You don’t run into a lot of situations where the rules clearly say how something works.” But even then, a lot of OSR-style play I read about seems to indicate that it doesn’t even necessarily matter if the rules say how something works. If a game has a “Disarm traps” skill (Such as the Thief class in some early D&D editions), that doesn’t prohibit the GM from giving lots of details about the trap and letting the player ‘disarm it themselves’ via cleverness instead of rolling if they want to.

So I find it really difficult to talk about how different games do or don’t support a process that seems to me to be mostly about not using the rules anyway? It feels more like the “design” here is a philosophical “giving permission” rather than a “by adding a rule for this, you diminish the ability of players to be clever” sort of thing. Obviously, you can design a game that feeds into the other side of the expectations, but it seems like it even in cases like D&D 3.5, it’s as much about the expectations that are being set in the text as it is about the mechanics themselves. That said, Vagabonds completely avoids ‘specific rules cases’ by really only providing a generic resolution mechanic for all tasks.

I could be completely off-base about this – this isn’t my area of ‘expertise’ certainly, but everything I read about it seems to indicate that it’s less a function “game design” in some mechanical sense (“visible rules”) and more about how the GM does or doesn’t apply those rules (“invisible rules”). There are a few things that seem to be popular ways to encourage this sort of thing – mostly involving, as far as I can tell, harsh consequences for NOT being ‘clever’ but even that is a pretty wide-open space.

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Yes, I see where you’re coming from. I think it’s possible that your lack of interest or experience is making you… less sensitive, perhaps, to the subtleties, which can loom quite large to a person who’s deeply committed to this goal.

For instance, the “invisible rules” (let’s call them GM techniques, perhaps?) have to interface with the “visible rules” in a productive way. This is where PbtA design often falters.

As an example, one of the things that is important for engaging player cleverness in OSR play is the impartial role of the “referee”. That impartiality, to a large extent, drives the risk/reward aspect of being “clever”. So the mechanics are very often/usually formulated in such a way as to allow and support that referee impartiality. Things like reaction rolls, morale checks, explicit rules for XP rewards (e.g. 1 GP = 1 XP), and strict rules around timekeeping and encounter checks all allow the referee to keep their “hands off” the outcomes.

PbtA rules, though, instead, give all the players decision points and impact on everything that happens. (I don’t know if you’ve ever seen OSR fans look at something like Apocalypse World, but sometimes the first reaction is: “What’s with all these lists? I don’t want to choose - this game would be better if there were numbers beside each list, and we could just roll a die.” You can easily see how this is missing the point of those rules - which is, precisely, to create space for agency and expression.)

So, in old school D&D, whether a monster from the next room comes investigating is based on a series of sequential procedures - did the players gauge risk and reward appropriately? For example, did they carry so much armour and treasure that their movement rate was low enough that they had to roll for an encounter here? In theory, you don’t even need the referee to determine this. It’s based on a series of decisions on the part of the players, and the known risks associated with them.

In a typical PbtA game, though, instead, the players make their moves, and if they roll poorly, the choice is placed straight in the GM’s lap: “Ok, your turn to talk. What do you think is interesting here? Want to have the monster attack?” The GM could, in theory, ignore that, and rig up some relatively impartial method to determine whether the monster attacks, but, even then, the reason she’s making that call is because the rules say this is what she does when the players roll a 6-, not because of a string of decisions the players made to get here in the first place.

This may sound like a subtle distinction, but it makes a big difference.

Another example is: where does the content of play come from? In an OSR style of play, there are prewritten modules, with their own content and rules. Many people look at something like B/X D&D and they think “well, these rules don’t do much…”, missing that, in fact, the rules and procedures for play are often in the modules used, moreso than the basic ruleset.

This also enables this approach to play.

As I’ve said before, none of this is impossible in a PbtA design (a definition which is almost impossibly broad!), but many of the typical features we associate with PbtA design do not support it well. A PbtA game which did support it well might no longer look much like a PbtA game at all.

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Which is why I think Vagabonds is probably exactly that. :wink: It calls itself PbtA but it has no picklists, for example. But then, I don’t really regard picklists as “core PbtA design” either, so… eh?

I think REALLY the thing is that as we both keep saying, “PbtA” is a HUGE SPACE, so the idea that it somehow “can’t” do player cleverness just seems highly unlikely to me.

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Has anyone claimed this?

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It’s been a while since the start of this thread, so my memory could be faulty, but I thought it was asserted, and this thread sortof seems to be going in circles as people discover it.