Design Ramblings: Designing from the Ludonarrative Hip

This is in a way a sequel to the to thoughts started on this thread with a different starting point. Instead of hacking something existing, this time I started by deciding what I want the game to be about and which Ludonarrative elements I want present then make only design choices that reinforced that.

I started with the following principles:

Ludonarrative Principles
  • The three more important things about a character should be:
    • How a character’s identity shapes their myth.
    • How a myth’s nature shapes the character yielding it.
    • How the actions and changes of the character reflect upon their relationships and communities.
  • Every character wields a myth. It gives them power but does not define them: however, using and aligning with it changes you. It is dangerous but easy to change your myth; changes, however, are there to stay.
  • Myths make things more complicated: they never make one’s life easier—only interesting.
  • Powers are not means nor ends; most problems characters face cannot be solved by directly application of mystical or physical force. Powers create opportunities, not solutions.
  • The game rewards civic and social engagement. Most solutions should come from relationship and communities.
  • No bad guys. Only people that are enacting harmful changes upon the world and think they are doing good.
  • People cannot be erased from existence; characters have to learn how to coexist with others, their legacies and the changes they enacted upon the world.
  • Change occurs across worlds: relationships and communities are reflected in the Underworld, Otherworld, Platonic Reams and liminal spaces between.

Ludonarrative Harmonious Design

“How a character’s identity shapes their myth.”

Each character has a core identity that provides their place in the world and major source of wants. PbtA style playbooks are particularly good at keeping those elements point and center; features like keys from Lady Blackbird and FATE actually integrate them into mechanics.

“How a myth’s nature shapes the character yielding it.”

A myth raises a constant mystery, a question that the character is constantly confronted with–and how they deal with it slowly mutates the mythic mystery. Having engagement with this mystery to be heavily rewarded should put it in the center of the action.

“How the actions and changes of the character reflect upon their relationships and communities.”

Urban Shadows has an advancement system that requires interaction with all communities. Dream Askew is deeply about people and the communities they build, both in the token dynamic and the initial setup. Blades in the Dark has a dynamic social system that changes depending on jobs and group interactions.

“Every character wields a myth. It gives them power but does not define them: however, using and aligning with it changes you. It is dangerous but easy to change your myth; changes, however, are there to stay.”

Very little designs are like this. The modular system of the City of the Mist is the closest, with changes occurring as powers are used and abused; the 7th Sea 2e advancement system by story beats can teach some valuable lessons.

“Myths make things more complicated: they never make one’s life easier—only interesting.”

The Pbta way to do this would be with harsh 7-9 results with poignant choices. Blades in the Dark gets the same effect with Devil’s Bargains.

“Powers are not means nor ends; most problems characters face cannot be solved by directly application of mystical or physical force. Powers create opportunities, not solutions.”

How does one uses their power? The mechanics should reward alternative troublesolving; powers should introduce new elements to the story. Moves that introduce rule exceptions and new ways to interact with the rules should be the ideal touchstones for these design choices.

“The game rewards civic and social engagement. Most solutions should come from relationship and communities.”

A solid mechanic backbone that makes dialogue and negotiation the center of story beats; community building as the most fulfilling approaches. Not many systems have it as a peripheric mechanic, much less as part of a core resolution mechanic. Nevertheless, allies and friends should beat hoarded powers any day.

“No bad guys. Only people that are enacting harmful changes upon the world and think they are doing good.”

“People cannot be erased from existence; characters have to learn how to coexist with others, their legacies and the changes they enacted upon the world.”

These two points share the same design space: either a carrot or stick should reward cooperation and reconciliation upon revenge and murder. XP rewards for mercy, Corruption tracks, a expendable resource that must be used to deliver finality through violence; those have been mechanics used on this space before.

“Change occurs across worlds: relationships and communities are reflected in the Underworld, Otherworld, Platonic Reams and liminal spaces between.”

This is an odd one. Dream Askew and Dream Apart used the GM playbooks to involve other worlds with the mundane community. Girl Underground is all about change of the girl place on the world through the adventure. Blades in the Dark create a different world with the Prison and Wanted levels, which through Heat relate with the normal exploits and the growth of the crew.

I wonder which skeleton framework would fit these ruminations. Forged in the Dark is looking one with quite the pros and not many cons.

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Still out of the country but thinking about how to move from the previous ramblings about Ludonarrative into actual, concrete design.

“How a character’s identity shapes their myth.”

Each character has a core identity that provides their place in the world and major source of wants. PbtA style playbooks are particularly good at keeping those elements point and center; features like keys from Lady Blackbird and FATE actually integrate them into mechanics.

“How a myth’s nature shapes the character wielding it.”

A myth raises a constant mystery, a question that the character is constantly confronted with–and how they deal with it slowly mutates the mythic mystery. Having engagement with this mystery to be heavily rewarded should put it in the center of the action.

“How the actions and changes of the character reflect upon their relationships and communities.”

Urban Shadows has an advancement system that requires interaction with all communities. Dream Askew is deeply about people and the communities they build, both in the token dynamic and the initial setup. Blades in the Dark has a dynamic social system that changes depending on jobs and group interactions.

“Every character wields a myth. It gives them power but does not define them: however, using and aligning with it changes you. It is dangerous but easy to change your myth; changes, however, are there to stay.”

Very little designs are like this. The modular system of the City of the Mist is the closest, with changes occurring as powers are used and abused; the 7th Sea 2e advancement system by story beats can teach some valuable lessons.

“Myths make things more complicated: they never make one’s life easier—only interesting.”

The Pbta way to do this would be with harsh 7-9 results with poignant choices. Blades in the Dark gets the same effect with Devil’s Bargains.

“Powers are not means nor ends; most problems characters face cannot be solved by directly application of mystical or physical force. Powers create opportunities, not solutions.”

How does one uses their power? The mechanics should reward alternative troublesolving; powers should introduce new elements to the story. Moves that introduce rule exceptions and new ways to interact with the rules should be the ideal touchstones for these design choices.

“The game rewards civic and social engagement. Most solutions should come from relationship and communities.”

A solid mechanic backbone that makes dialogue and negotiation the center of story beats; community building as the most fulfilling approaches. Not many systems have it as a peripheric mechanic, much less as part of a core resolution mechanic. Nevertheless, allies and friends should beat hoarded powers any day.

“No bad guys. Only people that are enacting harmful changes upon the world and think they are doing good.”

“People cannot be erased from existence; characters have to learn how to coexist with others, their legacies and the changes they enacted upon the world.”

These two points share the same design space: either a carrot or stick should reward cooperation and reconciliation upon revenge and murder. XP rewards for mercy, Corruption tracks, a expendable resource that must be used to deliver finality through violence; those have been mechanics used on this space before.

“Change occurs across worlds: relationships and communities are reflected in the Underworld, Otherworld, Platonic Reams and liminal spaces between.”

This is an odd one. Dream Askew and Dream Apart used the GM playbooks to involve other worlds with the mundane community. Girl Underground is all about change of the girl place on the world through the adventure. Blades in the Dark create a different world with the Prison and Wanted levels, which through Heat relate with the normal exploits and the growth of the crew

Pros and Cons of Setting DNA

FATE

Pros:

  • Fractal design around aspects can feed the ouroborus of change and transformation.

Cons:

  • It is hard to get excited about it: not the most exciting play.
  • FATE points economy favors slow buildup to “alpha strikes” at the end of sessions.
  • The entire economy can be exploited in a manner independent of actual fictional positioning.

ORTHODOX PBTA

Pros:

  • Integrates genre and theme in GM and player moves.
  • 7-9 results are amazing.
  • Custom moves are super easy to make and test without risk of breaking the game.

Cons:

  • Move bloat and playbook bloat are a common issue.
  • I don’t see how to accommodate the myth transformations in a playbook based advancement.

FORGED IN THE DARK

Pros:

  • It comes all down to Action and Fortune rolls.
  • Crew/Character playbooks are great and simple enough to adapt.
  • Built-in Trauma/ system that can be used to represent the tool the myth demands.
  • Can represent other worlds and communities through existing framework.
  • I am pretty sure I can use the Insanity mechanics of Cthulhu Dark and Trophy for something.
  • Devil Bargains!

Cons:

  • Action dice are fiddly and easy to break.
  • The tier system for relationships may not be the most exciting.
  • Community building needs some work.

GENESYS

Pros:

  • Great integration between mechanics and fiction already built-in on the dice mechanics.

Cons:

  • Work on the system is extremely front-ended and needs strong commitment.

DREAM ASKEW HACK

Pros:

  • Amazing community building.
  • Relationships are on focus with the way tokens fuel the mechanics.
  • Great for short games.

Cons:

  • Shines on a very specific, tight framework.
  • Fiddly for campaign play.

WORLD OF DUNGEONS MINIMALIST SYSTEM

Pros:

  • Extremely simple and solid.

Cons:

  • Extremely simple and solid.

GENERIC IMPERIALISM D20 FANTASY SYSTEM

Pros:

  • No.

Cons:

  • Yes.

WORLDS OF LEGACY

Pros:

  • Multi generation play.
  • Community building is a strong focus.
  • Rapsody of Blood and Godlike can teach me a lot about how to involve other worlds and myths.
  • You can have a myth sheet that passes across characters (which have their own sheet).

Cons:

  • Characters are more likely to pass the torch than to change significantly.
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I decided to go with Legacy DNA for my attempt at this game. I am working on a post going into my base design premise for the game, but I thought it would be fun to share this WIP dice mechanic inspired by the ttrpg Twitter discourse on fudging dice:

Triumph Dice

Whenever you tap into your Spark and unleash your mythic potential, you must add a special dice to your roll. This Triump dice works like a normal fudge dice (or d6) expect that you may decide to reroll it a number of times equal to your Triumph. However, your Triumph has a will of its own and will keep rerolling any “-” result.

If any of the following apply:

  • The roll result would be 0 or less ifnot for the Triumph Dice.
  • The Triumph dice rolls itself a number of times above.

You have to increase your Triumph by one

Part of the reason why I get decision paralysis when designing a game is I don’t even know where to start. Thankfully, the Legacy framework gives me a space to think about what I want the game to be about.

First, the Family equivalent: the Gens.

image

Every player controls one, and it is dictates how they interact with each other and the world on the Zoomed Out phase of play.

The character options of the Gens create its Myth: the mythic Covenant between People and Gods that they harness, corrupt and are in turn twisted by. Every Age the Myth can change and mutate as the Gens itself ascends, decays or shifts in ideology.

image

The characters for the Zoomed In phase sit at the intersection between Gens and its Myth: The Triumphant of the faction, a mystically empowered individual that is able to channel the Covenant by playing the role of the Myth’s protagonist. Unfortunately, that power is not without cost—the Gens shapes the Myth and the Myth shapes the Triumphant.

image

During the Zoomed Out phase, players interact with two main theatres beyond the holdings of the Gens: the Urbe, the mundane city, always greedy and always hungry; and the Shadow Senate, the governing body of the dead, heroes, monsters and demigods that oversees the Covenants between Mortals and the Divine.

image

The Shadow Senate is constantly involved in the intrigues and petty squabbles of the beings of the Supernal Realms—like the Otherworld, Underworld and Platonic Realms—however, that offers them unique opportunities to shape the fate of the Urbe that is open to the Gens but denied to purely mundane factions. As such, the Gens can use their Moves and Surpluses to directly influence the Needs and Fronts threatening the Urbe OR they can use their Moves to influence the Shadow Senate and through this body get what they are lacking.

Okay, but this screams potential for Zooming In! That is when Triumphants come into the scene, zooming in into dealings with the supernal realms and the fronts.

This keeps going, until something sets the clock for the end of the Age: either a Front is not stopped and causes massive changes to the Urbe OR a Gens is successful in achieving a Wonder.

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