Feedback - secret agendas

#1

I’m toying with introducing a mechanic to Last Fleet I’m calling “hidden agendas”. Each player will choose one for their character.

A hidden agenda is a goal which doesn’t neatly align with the fleet’s interests. It should have the potential to cause a character to neglect their duties, or even take actions that directly harm the fleet’s interests. It needn’t be actively malevolent, though it could be.

Players will earn xp for acting to promote their agenda, if it results in significant progress towards their goal or gets them into trouble.

Edit to add: the secret agenda must not be shared with the other players, even if you’ve revealed it in character. The intention is that there should always be doubt about the characters’ true motives.

So my question is: supposing this mechanic was in a game you played, do you think you would find that enjoyable? How do you think it would make you feel?

I’m asking because some people in my home group found it a turn-off and, no matter how well it might work in practice, I am wary (while recognising you can’t please everyone) of including mechanics that are off-putting to potential players.

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#2

Are you able to look up Saikoro Fiction games by Bouken Adventure Planning Service? Shinobigami centers on this concept. In Shinobigami, each character has a secret that causes them to act against their apparent motive. The ninjas are ordered to do this and that thing, but as a person instead of a living weapon, they are compelled to not do this and that thing - and other conflicts along that way.

Honestly I have not played Shinobigami that many times, but I loved how this worked. It was very enjoyable for me, because discovering someone else’s secret made me go “ooooh, that’s why they did that thing that way before!”. I’m all for more games that uses secrets as a core concept.

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#3

Are the hidden agendas only known to the player and the GM? Or do the other players know about them?

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#4

Following on what @shane said, I personally would like it as long as:

  1. It’s not a secret to the other players. Then the players can play into it to develop a great story arc, rather than it turning into a secret betrayal
  2. There’s a broad interpretation of what this counter agenda could be, so you’re not automatically all enemies of the Fleet.
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#5

The intention was that it definitely would be hidden to the other players - because the purpose of the mechanic is to create suspicion or, at least, uncertainty about motive. There’s nothing to stop it being revealed in character, as long as there’s doubt about whether the expressed motive is the true motive.

Definitely doesn’t imply being an enemy of the fleet - just that people can’t be sure of that.

#6

I wouldn’t run them as hidden from the other players at my table. This just ends up with players pulling the gm aside for X minutes telling them what they want to do while everyone else is doing something else. Or it becomes the passing notes game. This takes away from the group’s enjoyment (in my opinion).

I’d recommend listening to the second question asked in Adam Koebel’s Office Hours episode 53 for an in depth discussion of this:

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#7

The theory is that none of your actions are secret - only the reasons for those actions. So note-passing would be a definite no-no.

Don’t know if that would help at all?

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#8

I’ve not found an instance in a game where I thought a hidden agenda made the game more interesting or more enjoyable. In the games I like, the players work together to create their best story, even if the characters don’t. I play with all secrets known to all the players, and love to see them orchestrate the big reveal or the conflictedness of their characters.

What is the intent? Do you really want the players to not trust one another? What happens if they become confused as to how to move the story forward because they misunderstand what the other players are contributing.

Maybe there is a goal here that everyone would like to play to. But for me, I avoid hidden agenda games.

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#9

Is this meant to be a oneshot game or multi session type thing? For a oneshot I think you can likely get away with this. (See the hidden role card games popularity and the same for secrets/powers larps.) But for multiple sessions I think @forlorn1’s comment about making players not trust one another is astute. Having hidden agendas lead to players distrusting one another over time - which can become toxic. (This is as opposed to their characters distrusting one another - that’s fine. PvP is a totally legit play style.)

The players are at the table to collaboratively tell a story. They need to be able to trust the other players - it’s vulnerability that is necessary to bring the best ideas to the story. If it turns out that everyone isn’t at the table to tell the best story then the lack of trust will lead to a degradation in the vulnerability of the story telling. Players will (likely) eventually just focus on their own goals because helping others will become possibly hazerdous. (You can’t tell if a player is just being an asshole or is playing towards their hidden goal - which can give cover for people behaving badly.)

I might be able to see this work for a game where there is a “winner.” (Either a side or an individual.) That makes it competitive and some people can more readily handle duplicity when it is based on trying to “win.” (It’s not my cup of tea though.)

I would ask: practically speaking what does having the hidden agendas hidden from the other players do? What are the differences in the stories told that way as opposed to those told when everyone knows the secrets? From what I can tell it restricts the players’ abilities to make the best choices about the story - because they can’t consent to playing into someone’s hidden agenda.

I’d also wonder what the logistics of marking the xp for working towards the hidden goal are? Do they mark it when they do the thing? (Which gives the other players a fair bit of info if they have to announce it when they do it.) Is it done at the end by polling the table? Do they have to say what it was they did? If not does it fall the the GM to call bullshit?

I know that in general (unless you are Luke Crane) you shouldn’t design around bad actors. But I would also suggest that you shouldn’t design to make it easier for them.

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#10

I agree with a lot of the comments above. To me, if you want to avoid a mechanic that will be a turn off for some players. I think you have your answer. Both some people above, your own players, and my experiences tell me that secrets hidden from other players can be a turn off for some players.

That being said here’s some thoughts from my experience.

  1. Some people absolutely LOVE player level secrets. They will try to include them in every game, they will seek them out.
  2. Some people absolutely hate secrets. I have a few friends who absolutely refuse to play hidden identity games (referring to board games like The Resistance, Werewolf, Secret Hitler, or Battlestar Galactica: The Board Game). They don’t like lying to their friends, they don’t like being lied to by their friends. Even in the context of a game.
  3. Some players are absolutely “meh” on secrets, they’ll deal with them if they have to, but won’t seek them out either.

I know that it might seem kind of obvious that some people love 'em, some hate 'em, and some have no strong opinion. BUT making that explicit and thinking about WHO is the expected audience for the game, might be a better demographic than “people who play RPGs”.

My friends who absolutely hate hidden role games, would probably avoid an RPG with hidden agendas. But I’m pretty sure there will be some folks who will become more enthusiastic if that is a core element of the game.

For me personally, even though I enjoy hidden role board games, I’d probably avoid RPGs with hidden agendas, unless it was explicitly a one-shot. For me, the time boxing to a small amount of time really helps me enjoy them, it also gives me a time limit I can reasonable wait if this particular instance of the “hidden secret game” isn’t very fun for me. RPGs, even one-shots, have a tendency to be much longer than board games. Inhuman Conditions seems really enticing because it’s hidden roles, but super focused to a 15 minute ish experience.

This is a brilliant question. There might be ways to reward the behavior you are looking for without player level hidden secrets. Blades in the Dark has XP triggers for when your rival or trauma complicate your life. Triggers like those could help get you there, while having the information still be public.

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#11

Thanks for the responses so far everyone! I’ll reflect on the questions (and perhaps take up in another thread) but want to avoid getting into a more detailed discussion on the rationale, since my primary aim in this thread is gauging how people might react to such a rule, rather than exploring the potential impact of the rule on play.

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