That sounds great. I would probably suggest though on the character sheet not saying explicitly how many moves to choose (other than the role) - just say something like “discuss with your GM how many moves to take and when.” Otherwise the players are going to already start making those choices in their heads…
Hearts of Wulin Discussion
2 Likes
@edige23 @Agatha Is the packed dated 4/23 the latest playtest version? I’m going to start a campaign in the next couple months and want to make sure I have the latest. Thanks!
PS: I’m also a kickstarter backer.
1 Like
The wuxia genre is built on tropes, and many of those tropes are problematic. While some of the tropes are interesting to incorporate to confront and examine, some, I feel, are unnecessary for us to capitulate to as they only serve to exclude groups of people.
The one I’m concerned with here is the core concept of the romantic entanglement. While romance is a prominent element of wuxia fiction, the instruction that each character must choose a romantic entanglement says to players that someone categorically cannot play an aromantic character. I believe that it wouldn’t take away from the feel of the genre to change this to a love entanglement of any kind - romantic, platonic, familial, etc, and would fix a gap in the wuxia genre that denies and excludes the existence of aro and ace people.
4 Likes
That’s certainly a good point-- and I’ll keep that in mind as we work on the Entanglement sections.
7 Likes
Yes it is. I had the chance to sit down with Agatha at Gen Con and we spotted some things we want to adjust, particularly a few moves. I will try to get another iteration out for use in the next several weeks.
3 Likes
It seems to me like it’d be easy enough to allow a player to frame their other entanglement around family or friendship instead with a request to other players to leave them out of their own romantic Entanglements. (Though it occurs to me that there are even Romantic entanglements of the ‘we’re meant to be together but XXX wants to keep us apart’ where XXX could have familial or friendship reasons for that…)
I’d maybe worry that everyone doing so would constitute actual premise drift, but even then the Inner Conflict mechanic is probably robust enough to handle it without any hacking.
Jim - painting marginalised people as “insisting” and being on the outside and an exception and drawing attention to themselves because they want to play a character who’s like themselves is the exact attitude I’d like to see explictly erased in modern tabletop roleplaying games.
5 Likes
Sorry, @Cinphoria. I was referring to anyone who wanted to do that, but I understand and agree with your assessment that I messed up, and edited that phrase out. Sorry again.
2 Likes
I 100% support entanglements not having to be romantic. I think it will make the game better at no cost (people can still choose the romantic route if they want!).
A question, as I saw in the Kickstarter update that the rules are finalized: what meaty stuff is in the final rules that’s not in the playtest packet, out of curiosity? I’m particularly interested in whether or not you’ve fleshed out the rules for longer term play. The playtest packet is oriented towards one shots and very short campaigns (understandably!), I’m curious how the full rules will adapt to longer campaigns (which is what I’m interested in)
Keep up the good work!
2 Likes
I agree on the entanglement thing - familial stuff in particular is very important in most of the C-Dramas I have watched and there are lots of fun ways to be hidden relatives owing some deep filial debt.
1 Like
Thanks for the welcome, @Alun_R! I guess I’ve been lurking waiting for hearts of Wulin updates. I’m a huge wuxia junkie and am really excited about this take on the genre. I don’t have many chances to play games ATM but am hoping I can get a pbf going of HoW once the final rules come out!
1 Like
Maybe something along the lines of “It is strongly encouraged to have one of these entanglements be romantic or familial, especially for players new to the game.”
That turns it into a bit more of a “best practice” than a rule, and also broadens the space a little.
I think the key is to explain what makes a good or bad entanglements. Here is my attempt at an example, though the game designers can no doubt do this more consistently with the rules. But I think the key is to explain entanglements in terms of goals and contextualize why romantic entanglements might be particular good/common in light of that. My attempt:
In the wuxia genre, these entanglements are generally romantic. Romantic entanglements are often good catalysts for interesting drama because they can create interesting contradictions, they can get people to make decisions they otherwise wouldn’t – decisions they’d only make when love is on the line. That said, in the wuxia genre there are also non-romantic entitlements, and we want to support players who are interested in non-romantic themes. That said, a good entanglement is one which will put the character into a bind, which will potentially drive the character to make serious decisions with serious ramifications. Would this entanglement potentially lead to the character disobeying their master, leave a revenge unavenged, or in some other way violate personal and social codes? Perfect! A less useful entanglement is one that let’s the player off the hook, that doesn’t challenge them, that lets them easily satisfy everyone.
6 Likes
Just finished watching 天龙八部 (half gods and semi devil’s, I think?). 1997 version, the classic good stuff.
Hoping we get some exciting hearts of wulin news sooner than later. I need wuxia roleplaying melodrama in my life 
I’m curious how the system would work for wuxia adjacent genres. I’m generally skeptical of xianxia, but I just watched the untamed and…quite enjoyed it. But it has a lot of complexities that I’m not sure how HoW would handle! (Or if it even should)
I like how HoW handles combat a lot, because ironically, wuxia isn’t really about the combat, and the stronger person usually wins in a direct confrontation. But in xianxia, people have a much more complicated array of powers…it gets into exalted territory honestly. So I dunno!
There’s some ideas for handling Xianxia in there-- both about how to shift the fiction and some mechanical add-ons you can use to help simulate things like The Untamed (which is great), Ice Fantasy, or Martial Universe.
1 Like
I am looking forward to putting the ‘Coeur de l’epee’ stretch goal setting on the Gauntlet Calendar as soon as it’s available. I feel I can embrace Wuxia as a player but I still lack the confidence to run it. Swashbuckling Musketeers though … That I can do!
4 Likes
I had the pleaseure to playtest 3 sessions in recent run by Alun of Coeur de l’Epee setting for HoW.
I have played HoW before and I enjoyed it every time, but in Coeur de l’Epee I had major problem with moves and fiction. Also everyone else enjoyed the game greatly, so I might be the odd one.
Here is my issues and feedback.
- Inner Conflict move 7-9 result is missing an ending.
“On a 7-9 you must either flee the scene or mark an element (your choice).” if you mark an element then what? you pull through or not?
The most common of what I see in other games would be to add “On a 7-9 you must either flee the scene or mark an element (your choice) to take 10+ result.” - Inner Conflict as a whole. I hardly call it a move, any move in PbtA game resolves something, even Defy Danger resolves some peace of fiction, Inner Conflict doesn’t resolve anything. As such I see it as a resistance roll, you roll in order to avoid bad outcome with 10+ adding nothing to the fiction. What I would love to see is for the move having a clearly defined stake - why do you roll this move? what is at stake? In some games Defy Danger sort of moves have this as part of the move description “say what you are trying to avoid”.
Why it doesn’t resolve anything? Because it is so unspecific. Something happens in fiction on a 6- as GM makes a move. Something happens at 7-9 if you flee the scene. Nothing happens at other results - you keep it together or maybe mark an element, but this also has no fictional outcome. - Inner Conflict as an XP farm. In the game I played in 50% of PC XP was from this move. On a miss it awards even more XP. As such it is clearly written as the most used move. I’m not sure if it is a good design to have one move marked such obviously as XP farm.
- Inner Conflict trigger. “face to face with emotional turmoil and pressure from an entanglement or personal issue” is so not concrete and open to interpretation. Let me illustrate it with an example. There is a King’s party (in Coeur de l’Epee) and my character is secretly in love with one of the women at the court, a big dance is starting and I want to ask her for a dance. When should I roll the move? Before I ask her for a dance or as we dance? I expect the game rules to inform me with a fictional trigger.
- Inner Conflict result ‘flee the scene’ doesn’t fit Coeur de l’Epee setting. I’m not well versed in original HoW setting, but I’ve seen most of source material for Coeur de l’Epee - Musketeers, Man in Iron Mask etc. Characters in those movies do not ‘flee the scene’ but they make a fool from themselves and become source for gossips at the court, they lose reputation. That would be more fitting result in my opinion for this setting.
- Players should be somehow rewarded for engagin with another player Entanglement that targets them. (this reward XP could possible replace the XP from Inner Conflict)
- Hearts and Minds 7-9 results are not successes. They are a hard punch in the face and they are great ideas for 6-, but they are not a success with a cost, 7-9 should be a success with a cost -> they agree, but overreact.
- Bonds. They are weird, really weird. I understand that you seek to make them more mechanical than Hx or DW Bonds, but they are weird and they play weird. When a Bond can be used - anytime? So I’m dueling someone, I burn a bond on my father and I get a +1? does it make any sense?
- What does it mean to have an element mark? Why there is “Obsessive, Disdainful, Uncaring” written and a place to write a condition? should I pick one that fits the fiction and use it as a cue for my roleplaying?
- Face to Fate reads “On a 6- mark XP and the GM gains a soft move from fate for later use”. GMs job is to be doing soft move all the time, a 6- should either give GM permission to do a hard move or just say GM gets a move, but that’s quite obvious, anyway it should not be only a “soft” move.
What is good in the game?
EVERYTHING else. I love Entanglement. I love factions. I love scale of enemies.
3 Likes
I haven’t gotten to play Coeur de l’Epee, but I see and share many of your feelings in regards to HoW.
Inner conflict, especially, the 7-9 feels like 1-9 is nothing but hard moves.
More often than not, I mark an element, because running away pretty much ends a scene, and rarely in a satisfactory note.
1 Like