Seeking Feedback - Hesitation at the Gate

[dominik]

This is great, it fills most of the gaps that made it hard for me to grasp what this game is about.

As far as flow of information goes, I think that Character Creation should go first-ish. The City and The Supernatural is simply a lot of text which purpose isn’t clear at that point in the handbook. But on the other hand it does serve as an idea generator for the character creation process, so what I think could happen is this:

1. High level overview of what this game is about (that’s mostly covered above and in the original text) and tools of trade.
2. Brief explanation of how characters relate to the order, city and supernatural aspects of the game. Shorter blurbs filled with flavor should probably be enough to spark an interest in some things while players won’t be overwhelmed with stuff they don’t find interesting. Players can then jump to a related, long form description of what they want to explore. (side note: while reading for the first time I had difficulty understanding whether all characters should come from the same order or not; somehow I felt like this was important to me)
3. Character creation section.
4. Bonds section
5. Detailed description of the order, city and the supernatural.
6. Playing the game and everything else that follows it.

This may very well be a suboptimal flow, but at least it tries to follow the high level to low level of detail path. Right now you front-load a lot of things that aren’t immediately important in some obvious way. Drilling down is bound to create some duplication but I think it will be much easier to grasp things this way.

There’s one more question that’s on my mind for some time now: which of the, uhm, areas for characters to explore (social structure of the city, structure of the order, types of magic and path to understanding) were the most successful and most often explored by players during testing? Perhaps some of the diversity that’s present isn’t actually contributing that much and the game would be much better off doubling down on something that’s already strongly preferred by players?

[Radmad]

which of the, uhm, areas for characters to explore (social structure of the city, structure of the order, types of magic and path to understanding) were the most successful and most often explored by players during testing

Two players are heading into the magical aspects of the game while my third is digging into the engineering. We’ve got a plague doctor, a necromancer, and an engineer. If I had to point to one aspect, I would say the social is not really being explored, we haven’t engaged in any politics.you have a point that there is a lot of questions about “society” and not much baseline like the magic/supernatural chapter. I don’t want to completely jettison that since “society” seems like an important aspect of the Renaissance world, but it should be formatted like the other chapters in that it offers options as oppose to demanding a bunch of player input before they’ve even got a character.

[dominik]

I don’t know if this is useful and I haven’t thought about this a lot yet but there are two major differences between social and magical here. One is that unlike magical, social questions are open and there is no rigid structure here to work with. But another is that a lot of social is either/or: is nobility hedonistic or conservative? is middle class skillful or shady? At the same time magical is presented as (as far as I understand at least) "everything is out there, just pick your focus.

What if players were to exclude certain supernatural aspects from their chronicle? Each could potentially be very different in terms of ambience, but I don’t really know if this would work in practice. This could either focus each game or completely derail what this game is about.

[Radmad]

the aim for that chapter is to encourage the entire playgroup to collaborate on what kind of world and thus what kind of stories they want to tell. A more explicit “please play session 0” if you will. I see how that’s confusing if it placed before the character creation section, since a reader is going to focusing on what they personally are creating at that point. I agree that putting that after chargen will help with readability, that will create a better segue as the new flow would be personal chargen -> players
's order -> entire group’s world

[Axxroytovu]

I’m a huge Tarot nut so I had to chime in here. Definitely interested in seeing where this game goes.

• I totally agree with @dominik, you need a hook that tells me what the game is about. Is this a horror game, an adventure fantasy game, or a mystery investigation game? Having some examples of play and maybe an example module would be super useful.
• I love your section on the different types of magic, and you’ve inspired me to write my own version of that for games that I’m working on.
• Have you read the game The Sword, the Crown, and the Unspeakable Power? It has a really good section on political fantasy world building and you could probably take some ideas from there.
• In terms of formatting, I’ve found that it’s often helpful to have the rules set up in the order: Basic game concepts (glossary, general example of play, resolution rules), character creation, specific rules, setting. There are some exceptions but I’ve found that this is at least a good starting point for getting everything into an easy to follow organization.
• I get where you’re coming from with IP, but it isn’t that mechanically different than XP and might just be a barrier to entry.
• It’s hard to understand Arts during character creation. One thing that I’ve found to be super helpful is to put a copy of the character sheet at the start of the “building your character” section, so that people have a reference of “Ok, I just fill in these 5 bubbles for arts” and don’t have to keep flipping back and forth to the big section in the back…
• The functions of the great works are interesting, but would link to the world much better if they had some kind of name or “flavor” to them. If I pick the “The trump suit is cups” function, what does that look like? If it had a name as simple as “Aura of the Mind,” and a description like “The item projects a field of energy that enhances the mental focus of those within it,” then I at least have some idea of what this item will look like or how it fits in with the world.

It has a lot of promise. If you’re interested in playtesting I’d totally be interested in trying this out.

[Radmad]

Have you read the game The Sword, the Crown, and the Unspeakable Power?

I have not, but I’ll check it out, thanks for the recommendation!

I get where you’re coming from with IP, but it isn’t that mechanically different than XP and might just be a barrier to entry.

You’ve got me there, I’ll definitely be making this change

It’s hard to understand Arts during character creation. One thing that I’ve found to be super helpful is to put a copy of the character sheet at the start of the “building your character” section

Heh, I literally just did this before reading your comments, glad to know I’m heading in the direction.

The functions of the great works are interesting, but would link to the world much better if they had some kind of name or “flavor” to them.

Very good point, they’ll have to be somewhat vague as Works can take many forms, but I agree that it needs a narrative anchor to increase memorability

Thank you so much for the comments! Regarding playtesting, unfortunately my current schedule is full with running this for my own group plus playtesting another friend’s game and the BW campaign I’m in.

I am working double-time to have playtest resources ready for Pax Unplugged though, if you’re attending send me a message and we can schedule something!

[Radmad]

Configured the character sheets to give them some actual design. They’re bare bones but at least it actually looks readable. Designed them to be a foldable pamphlet/booklet.

The biggest flaw right now is there’s no elegant way to track wounds (they accrue individually on bonds and reduce them by 1 dot per wound). I plan to laminate some sample sheets for playtesting so wounds and notes can be marked with dry erase markers, but that’s no good for a character that will actually track XP. Appreciate any suggestions or critiques!

the “outside” is on the right, “inside” on the left

Here’s a 20 pt. sample character I just rolled up.

almost forgot, art is by M S Corley, fantastic illustrator

[dominik]

My response is long overdue but I didn’t have time to sketch the suggested sheet change until now.

What I would change (and how):

1. separate general from current values bonds have (circles vs squares in example attached)
2. unless characters gain many arts during the game, I’d go with a list of arts and a fillable list
3. goals change so I’d make writing them in as freeform (as I’d do for arts)
4. de-emphasize portrait since it doesn’t have mechanical significance
5. add player name for future reference
6. fit everything on a single page (including card and arts reference)

This is roughly what I’d go for:

Usage pattern for goals is: put a dot or a cross in the circle and write in your goal. When it’s completed or changed, cross it out and add new one to the first empty line you have.

Icons for arts are super random and perhaps you’d want cups, wands, etc. there. Whether you do this or, say, initials, these have to be distinct enough to be easily recognizable and simple enough for anyone to use (brain and friends obviously don’t satisfy this requirement).

If current bond level is tracked with X markers, it’s easy to wipe it or whatever. But once markers become illegible, cross the line out and occupy a new line.

There’s a need for some balance of number of entries for each section but not knowing how things pan out during game, I cant say if 10 is a lot or not enough.

This is the rough idea I had for the past few weeks. Hope it’s of any help.

[Radmad]

Phenomenal! Thank you so much. I can’t say I will use exactly this design, but this is a lot for me to work with.

I do have a number of updates that I haven’t posted here plus more to make, it’s just been hectic between PAX and the holidays. Will try to post the most current build by mid January.

[Radmad]

Newest version here

several changes, I will try to document them all

• complete reorganization of the chapters, interested if this flows better
• added a third kind of bond, dual bonds which works how you’d expect (I hope). I’m tempted to trim this rule out as it feels a little finicky but I also thought it helps cover more bases
• Conflict resolution rules have been improved, also added a play example. Right now the example is broken down to show play as each rule is explained. I’m wondering if this breaks the flow too much and would be more helpful as one unbroken example at the end of the chapter
• Removed a lot of extraneous rules like Doubling Down. Over 5 sessions my players have never used it and it feels too complicated for what it’s trying to do
• Inspiration points renamed to Experience Points
• Game master is now called the Fatespinner
• Added titles to each of the Great Work functions
• Added an example of how to calculate a Great Work’s XP cost
• Added a “how to run HatG” chapter. Very interested if this helps anyone who’s been having trouble grokking the game or how it conforms/contradicts your expectations of how the game plays
• Added a short Splat (this is the one I ran at PAX Unplugged), still needs some work but it gets the point across. How is my format? Too much/too little info?

There are a few things left on the docket

• The fluff intro needs a complete rewrite
• I have a friend helping me out with the UX for the character and order sheets. will posts those when they’re ready
• Needs Art! I’ve been dragging my feet on this one. I have a bunch of artists whose work I like that I need to reach out to. I’ve done enough work on this that I want to invest in quality artwork. If anyone knows of a good network to find artists that info would be much appreciated
• Final graphic design, can’t really shake this out until I have art
• Advertising? I plan to publish this year and my social networking is painfully weak. I need to make a Twitter account (ugh) and start getting the word out. Other than another Discourse I’m part of I’ve only shared this with the Gauntlet. Interested if anyone knows of a good way to advertise games by word of mouth. I’ve got my shortlist of contacts for playtesters from PAX (hopefully I’ll get a few more at East) that I plan to give a free copy of the game to. Was thinking I’d send them a little update email soon so they don’t completely forget about me and hopefully spread a little love to their friends.
• Publish. I plan to publish on DriveThru and itch.io. AFAIK these are the biggest distributors, any others I should know about? A physical copy would be super neat but that might be biting off more than I can chew and seems like a lot of work for trying to break into the industry. I’d consider it if I somehow pulled an audience demand but I figure that’s off the table right now

Once again, thank you everyone who took the time to read through and provides critiques!

[Radmad]

Just a quick heads up, I’m putting together a mailing list for general status updates, if you’re interested send me an email at radmadrpgs@gmail.com

[Radmad]

Latest version HERE

Lots of little edits, lots of moving things around to improve flow

Aggressive shaving down of extraneous rules. At this point I think I’ve removed everything too finicky or niche to bother including

Included all new flavor text which has been interspersed throughout the rules. Tried to evoke the kind of themes I envisioned for the game while still being short. Would be interested in any comments and critiques you all have (especially if the font is too hard to read).

At this point I would say the rules are complete, just need art and character sheet finalized so I can begin formatting the final print.

As always, huge thanks to everyone who has been following and offering critiques. I’ve gotten nothing but positive vibes whenever I put out feelers and I can’t describe how encouraging it’s been to have people express interest. Cheers!

[DeReel]

typos : and all dangerous escaped,
shave it : (what would commonly be called the Game Master)
sugg. : name “players players” something else than “players” or “players other than the fatespinner” (questers, disciples, impetrantes, whatever) ; type “The fate spinner” consistenly (I personally like Fatespinner)

That’s page 5 and I have to get back to work.
It reads smooth until now. You definitively have room for side frames comments, but the *pentagram is a nice touch.

[dominik]

The general feedback I have is to remove all formatting before you start laying everything out and use some simple convention for stuff. Typically you’d use one color for emphasis, another for pull quotes and such, yet another for headings. This way it will be much easier to import it into your editor of choice.

This is something I think I didn’t mention before but: don’t invest in a lot of art unless you know what style you’re aiming for and what general layout you’re going to have. Polish two to four pages from your document in Affinity Designer or some other tool you’re familiar with/have access to. Make sure you include most of the things that will end up in your layouts so, for example, if you plan on having tables, have a table there; if you want vertical art, have it there. It’s crucial that if you plan on sharing it to gather feedback, you should commission the art pieces and shouldn’t use random placeholder art you have no rights to - but I’m sure you’re aware of that.

I can’t guarantee that but I suspect that you won’t be satisfied with your first super polished attempt. But that’s OK since you’ve wasted time on two pages instead of eighty. Even things like the number and sizes of columns, margins and gutters will take time to get right. And these things interact with the desired sizes and proportions of art you can have. You may realize that in order to improve access you need page headers with section names. Size, placement and presentation of page numbers will matter. And so on.

What I’m trying to say is: polish a tiny vertical slice of your book first to get an idea of how much and what sort of art you need before you pay for it (among other things). And try to stick to fonts that are free for commercial use so you don’t end up with a problem on your hands.

[DeReel]

typo : rules of crop up (to),
typo ? : categories; Physical , bonds; Personal, ( : ) “his condition is also interference by our enemies” (also caused by)
shave : what would commonly be called skills. codified ; or player ;

Suggestions :

(age) from teen to geriatric ;

rephrase Personal bonds to justify their being called Bonds at all (as is done with Magic-Wands)

I need this upfront : “you are aiming to make a character that will create drama, not to be a perfect conqueror.”

Rather than explanation of Affect, bonds, works or ToI, I would prefer ready made examples to pick from. It’s very handy and fast too, and there would be a general rule that “you can begin to change things when you know the game better”

I want a cheat sheet on howto Use Bonds during game on my Character sheet or something.

I sometimes don’t know whether the rules speak of the fictional world or the real world, which is not comfortable at all ; eg : In “the rank of a work … depleted” we switch from “work” as a game term to its fiction analogue.

This is page 15 and I really like the epistolary pauses. They remind me of Annalise, where rules, actual play and comments waltz together.

[DeReel]

So, where is it at ? Do you make progress ?

[Radmad]

sorry for the radio silence. I’ve been chipping away at final edits. My artist bailed on me so I’m looking for a new one.

I apologize for the delay, but don’t worry, I haven’t abandoned the project.

[Radmad]

Oh god it’s been 7 months…

Art is done! Rules are done! Now it’s just layouts, final edits, and publishing. It’s been a hell of a year, thanks again for everyone that took the time review and critique. I’m sorry it took so long for me to get back to this project!

I’m gonna be talking a lot about HatG on Twitter to promote. If you’re active there a hundred blessings to anyone retweets and/or helps with engagement! If you want a demo kit just let me know.

[dominik]

Congrats, @Radmad! Where/in what form are you planing on publishing?

[Radmad]

For now digital only. I plan to release on Itch.io and Drivethru.

For Itch I plan on doing a perpetual promotion where for every sale I add a community copy.