Which player to pick for a roll

Yendor · September 13, 2019, 3:37pm

I have still not run a game yet, however I was wondering about few items which are probably in front of me if I read further. Any feedback would be welcome on these:

If I describe a angry agile group of 5 wood elves, scurrying through the tree tops to suddenly stop and perch, then loose arrows at the player party of 4 (unaware as they innocently cutting down a sacred tree for a campfire). As a GM, do I pick one person to shoot at in the player party and therefore ask one player to defy danger or could I say the volley is directed at the group in general so they all roll? Or is it just one player that is asked to defy danger?

If it is one player, I assume they get the +1 damage per additional angry wood elf shooter beyond the first in the volley. If I say they are shooting at the group rather than an individual, would I still add +1 damage per additional shooter or would it be better to suggest 1 arrow is inbound per player, therefore each player rolls defy danger per inbound arrow targeting just them?

Would I roll damage once for the volley (if a players fail the defy danger). Or would I roll play player?

Also in regard to timing, should I allow some players to defend, perhaps saying they could jump in front of another player in the group?

Finally before the defy danger, should I perhaps offer a Discern realities for one or two players that were not 100% focused on chopping down a sacred tree? Therefore they might then hear/spot the inbound tree scurrying elf war party?

To possibly simplify what I was trying to say…

“Is there a method to allow a group of NPC’s to fire on the party of players as a group which would assume the inbound shooting is a random spread of arrows/meteors/angry bees etc”

Deckard · September 13, 2019, 3:45pm

I would ask all of the players to Discern Realities first. Anyone that succeeds can then use their +1 Forward on their Defy Danger roll or get out of the way by fictional positioning (hiding behind a tree). Dungeon World is rarely setup to just fire traps without any warning. It can feel too much like GM fiat. Instead, you want to setup with a soft move which allows players to react before they are attacked.

Jesseabe · September 13, 2019, 4:31pm

Assuming this is Dungeon World, I wouldn’t ask for a roll, I’d ask the players what they do. Once you know what action the characters take you can see if any PC moves trigger. If they don’t, you make a GM move in response to the PC’s actions. In terms of deciding what comes first, id ask for each individual player’s actions at once, then resolve as makes sense in the fiction, moving spot light afterwards as neccesary.

Deckard · September 13, 2019, 4:45pm

@Jesseabe - I have a bit of a hangup I guess- I still use Discern Realities a bit like a trad perception roll to see if the player perceive the trouble first. Your answer is the more true Dungeon World response. The fun bit in my response is that depending on the Discern Realities roll, I sometimes improvise a new danger or advantage based on the questions.

technoskald · September 13, 2019, 5:33pm

This is where the fictional positioning comes in. Maybe you have the fabled “marching order” and the elves shoot at the character in front (“use a monster move”). Maybe you just have an arrow hit a tree next to them (“show signs of an approaching threat”) and then let them start responding. Maybe you have it hit a character next to a Paladin or Fighter and give them a chance to defend their comrade in some way (“give an opportunity that fits a class’s abilities”).

Remember that you’re playing to find out what happens, but you also get to “think dangerous”!

Yendor · September 13, 2019, 5:56pm

Sage advice. Thanks

Jesseabe · September 13, 2019, 5:58pm

@Deckard. I mean, you can do that without the questions too, depending on how things shake out and what moves flow from the fiction. That said, I get how the questions can help inspire those things.
I strongly dislike rolls without move triggers in PBTA games. I feel like I have been robbed of my opportunity to do my thing, and make the choices the game offers me.

Deckard · September 13, 2019, 6:00pm

Yeah. This! Ask questions about where everyone is… Give a warning… And let them react. Do my suggestion instead if you were not sure what your next move is and the players are look at you to push the action

Neurotrash · September 13, 2019, 6:08pm

I think one of the most difficult things to break away from when moving from trad games to PbtA is the idea of “passive” rolls.

Like, in usual D&D, you’re walking into a room and there’s a trap, or an ambush, or a secret door, you’d have them roll (or check their passive perception stat) to see if the characters notice first, and then if they don’t, something bad happens.

In Dungeon World, you really can’t do that. If a trap gets sprung, it’s because somebody rolled a miss or a complication, or look to you to find out what happens. (The way I play, I probably hadn’t even decided there was a trap yet until they rolled.)

But in order to roll, the character has to actively do something that’s a trigger. If they’re just cutting trees and they ask what happens, I’d definitely set it up with a soft move first (arrow in tree), then when they start reacting and triggering rolls, you’ve got a much better idea of who’s getting shot by what.

Also, Strandberg’s Homebrew world has a group move (Struggle as One) that covers a situation like this, when a whole rain of arrows is coming down on everybody. You might want to check that out.

shane · September 13, 2019, 9:45pm

I assume you mean @Jeremy_Strandberg?

I likely would telegraph the importance of the tree clearly. From there they can Discern Realities or they can just chop it down and deal with the consequences - or you can give them one more chance and give them some additional warning ad they prepare the strike the tree - maybe they hear a sharp intakes of breath…

Jeremy_Strandberg · September 13, 2019, 10:50pm

As others have suggested, you shouldn’t be calling for a roll without first:

Establishing the fiction
Making a (soft) GM move
Asking “What do you do?”

Let’s take it as a given that the PCs are deciding to cut down a healthy tree to use as firewood. They’re doing it. You’ve decided, based on your prep or your instincts or maybe because they biffed a Quartermaster roll that this has drawn the ire of the wood elfs.

You start by setting the scene, asking questions until you can clearly visualize it. “Okay, which of you is chopping down the tree, and which of you setting up camp? The Fighter’s chopping? Sure… anyone else? Cleric? Cool. Wizard, you’re back at camp? Okay. Fighter, Cleric… you start chop chop chopping into this beautiful young ash tree, and in a few minutes, you’ve got a good gouge taken out of it.”

Then you make your soft move: in this case, a combo of put them in a spot and introduce a new creature type. Pick a PC and direct the move at them (but feel free to have the consequence of the move directed at someone else). So, like: “Cleric, you just handed the ax over the Fighter and he’s starting to go at it, and as you’re catching your breath, something… maybe a stillness in the air, or a glint of light, who knows… something makes you glance up. And there you see it: an elf, up in the tree, arrow drawn and aimed at the Fighter. It looses the arrow, what do you do?”

Now we see what the Cleric does. Does he tackle the Fighter to the ground? Defy Danger with DEX. Does he step in front of the blow and protect the Fighter? Defend! Does he yell “Look out!” and run for his shield and hammer? No move triggered, and the Fighter’s going to get a d8+X of damage from a flurry of arrows in the back.

Let’s say that the Cleric chooses to Defend the Fighter, jumping in front of him and maybe dragging him down. On a hit, I’m going to say that the Fighter takes d8+x damage (where X is the number of additional elfs that are shooting). The Cleric can then spend hold from Defend to take that damage himself, or to halve the damage, or (if he got a 10+) to do both. If the Cleric misses the roll, then I’d be inclined to have the elfs split their shots… maybe 3 of them shoot at the Fighter (and he takes d8+2 damage) and 2 of them shoot at the Cleric (and he takes d8+1).

And then, whatever, the result, we go back to: describe the situation, make a (soft) GM move, ask “what do you do?”

Jeremy_Strandberg · September 13, 2019, 10:56pm

For reference, here’s that move:

I actually wouldn’t recommend using it here. It’s best used for “zoomed out” dangers, where we aren’t resolving things action-by-action. It largely resolves a situation, prompting us to either:

Show the PCs overcoming the problem handily
Describe how the PCs encountered difficulty, but got each other out of it
Drop into moment-to-moment play, and see what happens from there.

I could see a Struggle as One roll resulting in one or more of the players chopping down a sacred tree and thus getting ambushed by irate wood elves. But once arrows are flying, it’s not really appropriate.

Paul_T · September 14, 2019, 4:11pm

Dungeon World (and all/most PbtA games) does not provide a strict, rules-based answer to many of he questions in this post.

You’re not going to get a “formal” answer to many of these questions (like whether to roll damage once or separately for each target). This can be a real challenge with running this kind of game, in comparison to a more “traditional” system, which might have a specific and rules-based “order of operations” (1. Check for surprise, 2. Roll initiative, 3. Resolve in combat order, etc.).

Handling this kind of situation in a PbtA game can become more “art” than “science”. I would add to the (excellent) advice above by saying that you should use your sense of dramatic coordination and think in terms of two other roles:

As GM, you are kind of like a movie director here. Think in those trends. Where do you want to focus the camera, and who’s on screen?

You can say the arrows are incoming at the Warrior, and ask her how she reacts. That’s very different from announcing an impending threat to the whole group and asking them one at a time. Which seems more dramatic and interesting in your mind’s eye?

This is all about making exciting fiction that “looks cool” on screen, so to speak. Who would the camera focus on right now, if this were a movie or tv show? From which character’s perspective would this be narrated if it were a chapter in a book?

You are also partially responsible for who talks at the table: the social structure of the conversation that is happening.

Is there a player who hasn’t had a chance to speak for a while? Would asking the Warrior what she does mean that her player has been making all the important decisions for the last 30 minutes of play?

Direct your prompts, descriptions, and moves to keep the spotlight moving and to keep players engaged.

Sometimes, in effective and functional play, these roles dovetail or overlap nicely.

For instance, you know the archers are nearby, and the PCs are busy chopping at the tree.

But then the Cleric speaks up and says he’s looking around for footprints. You realize this player hasn’t had anything important to deal with in some time, so you use this opportunity to focus on them and to give them a hard choice:

Perhaps you ask them if they’re Discerning Realities, or simply tell them they spot the threat of the elf archers, and let them know that their friends are in danger. What do you do?

This is an aspect of PbtA play which can be equal parts bug and feature; equally exciting, freeing, and frustrating. Try to make it work for you!