Help Me Learn to Love FitD?

#1

So this is kind of a weird topic, but… For a long time I’ve been seeing how Blades in the Dark, and then Forged in the Dark, have really been taking off in the PbtA-adjacent, indie gaming world. There have been a number of hacks and new games coming out that look really interesting! Song for the Dusk, Scum and Villainy, Blades Against Darkness, A Nocturne, Hack the Planet, Band of Blades, Beam Saber, etc… I’ve enjoyed checking all these out, especially the really evocative settings that most of them come with, buuuut…

Having played a few times, and watched/listened to a number of actual plays, I still just can’t get into the system… In theory, I enjoy how there’s generally a little more going on than in your average PbtA game: deeper avenues for advancement, lots of currencies to manage, etc. But, there’s a number of things that I just constantly bounce off of.

I’ll try to refrain from writing out a whole exhaustive list, but in brief, the big things that come to mind are:

  • I can’t ever quite get my head around Position/Effect. It feels like it can really slow the game down to declare/negotiate these every move, and I never feel like I have a solid sense of what different levels of effect are supposed to look like.

  • The default harshness of the system also puts me off. If you take harm, it’s pretty difficult to ever get rid of. Stress seems designed to build up on you over time no matter how much you keep it down. PC mortality seems high, because the crew is the only real lasting character. Doing jobs against higher tier factions puts you at near-constant limited effect, etc. I guess this is a personal taste thing at the end of the day… I’ve thought about how you could house-rule some of these things, but at what point does modifying rules for a game start to feel like “just play something else…?”

I absolutely don’t mean this to be a post dragging FitD. When I look at it from a more detached design standpoint, it’s a really brilliant system. I think it’s a great example of every mechanic and currency tying in really tightly with one another, and so much has been written already about the great setting in Blades. It’s just that for me, it’s still not clicking. But I really want it to click!

TLDR; what advice do people have for me to find a way to really get Blades/FitD? Is there a good mentality to adopt that might make it work for me? I guess at some point it becomes a matter of “it’s just not for you,” but I’m still at the stage of hoping that’s not the case. How do you suggest easing into it? Are there home rules people have used to make it work for them?

Edit: On top of that, feel free to tell me what you really like about Blades/FitD! I’d love to hear what people are enthusiastic about with this system! Maybe it’d help to hear what about it makes people really excited!

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#2

If you approach position/effect from a negotiation/haggling perspective, they will never be clear cut enough. If you use them to establish shared norms about the context of actions, they start to flow smoothly quite quickly. I think they make explicit a thing that is implicit in most systems.

Harm doesn’t take that long to recover if you’re willing to focus several character’s downtime on it, and stress can soak a lot of potential harm. Taking traumas is a non-penalizing consequence of going over stress, so you can push too hard without much consequence.

Maybe run shorter scores and make sure you’re getting enough coin for them? The longer the score, the more stress you’ll take avoiding consequences. The more coin you make, the more downtime actions you get to recover and prep.

I actually rarely see Blades characters die (unless the player leans into that). Are there actual play series you’ve watched with a lot of character deaths?

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#3

What a love about Blades is the tools for truly player-driven campaigns:

  • Options with context: Crews have a claims sheet. If they want their own safe, or drug den, or luxury fence, then they can pursue a score for that thing (with clear mechanical benefits). I think this results in much more sandbox-style play than waiting for a job through an NPC.

  • Connections to relationships: Crews can choose to target the turf of a specific faction. Because all the factions are intertwined, PCs could look up who their allied factions consider enemies and try to tie a score into their alliance-building.

  • A sense of place: PCs have a base of operations and will likely interact a lot with the other factions in their home district. Taking a job in a new district is likely to introduce them to new factions and NPCs. And it can be interesting for a scruffy Crows Foot gang to take a job in the wealthy mansions of Brighthollow.

  • Ways to gather information before committing to an adventure: PCs can start projects in their downtime to search for an unusual score or unknown faction. If players are interested in something, but it’s not an immediate option, they can spend resources to make it happen.

  • Clear risk/ reward: Crews can go after a faction of a higher tier than they are, for more rep and likely a greater payout. However, that faction will have better guards, better gear, and better security measures. Given the transparency of the tier system, PCs can make informed decisions about when to try to punch above their weight class.

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#4

For what it’s worth, it’s BARELY a houserule to just say “Y’know, I’m not interested in this game being brutal, so tier is not a factor in effect.” and that pretty much entirely takes care of your second issue – this is how my Blades game ran for a long time. Be advised that it makes the PCs pretty dangerous, but it definitely works.

I also definitely disagree that character mortality is high. It’s really not hard at all to get rid of Harm in Blades, you just need to spend some money on it. The only way a character really gets taken out of play is via Trauma, and you need a LOT of Trauma for that to happen.

Actually, have you read Blades in the Dark? It does a lot of talking about how to set these sorts of parameters for your game. That’s actually one of the things I really like about it – it’s really easy to tune the game to get the feel you are looking for.

Otherwise? I like it because of The Crew and the way it persists outside of any given character and because it’s got a pleasant middle ground between “rules light” and “oh god the rules, the rules!” My player who really is into mechanical “stuff” can sink his teeth into it, but my players who prefer drama and roleplay also have good support.

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#5

So for me, I NEED reference sheets for games. I love it when they come provided… but sometimes I actually get more out of them if I make them myself. @Paul_Beakley made a position/effect chart for Band of Blades. It’s not exactly the same as Blades in the Dark, but it’s a good starting off point. I would strongly suggest making one for the FitD game you want to play.

But yes, I do think the negotiation for Position/Effect can slow things down, I have found that with system mastery it definitely speeds up. Getting shared understanding of what a desperate situation is and what great effect are will definitely help. But depending on the specific game and tone, you’ll find these things shift.

One thing to remember is that you can resist a ton of consequences. But this resistance might vary drastically from system to system. In Blades in the Dark you might be able to shift a level 3 harm down 2 levels to be a level 1 harm and use armor to negate the last bit. Scum and Villainy you might be able to resist the level 3 harm. In Band of Blades you might only be able to resist it down 1 level to level 2, then with armor push it down to level 1 harm. What and how much you can resist, to me, affects the tone of the game just as much as how big an effect “great” effect is.

[One side note remember you can NOT resist the effect from a devils bargain, those things happen and you can’ t resist it]

One thing I’ve seen that makes FitD seem more harsh, is that folks generally don’t want to “stress out and get a trauma” and instead will take a harm level. Go the other way, TOTALLY stress out and take a trauma and avoid and minimize harm levels as much as possible. The first trauma (and even subsequent ones) can be a source of XP, and can make your character more interesting or fun to play… or you can pretty much ignore it too. Harm levels are rough, and really take some focus and dedication to fix, or to have you have multiple characters to let them rest up and recover between sessions.

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#6

I’m a little perplexed by the idea of position/effect being something you need to achieve system mastery to avoid spending a lot of time on. Position and effect is super easy:

Unless for some reason the GM thinks this is extra dangerous/extra safe, or that for some reason you’re likely to be extra effective or very ineffective, it’s Risky/Standard. If the GM doesn’t say anything, it’s Risky/Standard. If the GM forgets, it’s Risky/Standard. The game works fine that way. Every once in while you’ll still get a situation where it’s OBVIOUSLY not Risky – either because of Consequences or an Engagement roll pinning things at Desperate, or because someone else took a Setup action to move things up to controlled, or whatever. In those cases, it’s whatever is obvious. You’re basically already trained to do this – think of your position as the “target number” if you want. You’ve been doing that forever, most likely, and no one ever talks about how long it takes to set those, even though they’re way more complex than Position/Effect.

Effect is almost always standard unless there’s a mechanical modifier on board – Fine equipment? Okay, Improved Effect. Is it a Demon, and you’re just trying to stab it? Okay, Reduced Effect. But mostly? Standard. Heck, a lot of the time effect doesn’t even matter – either you do the thing or you don’t, and improved effect doesn’t really help. I find that effect is most relevant when dealing with something that has a Clock.

Oh, and that’s another thing that’s configurable: How effective Resistance is. Does a Resistance roll just reduce consequences? Or does it avoid them altogether? This is another thing that Blades talks about and gives guidelines for.

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#7

I like this a lot too, I think it’s one of the big things that keeps me trying to come back to it even when I struggle to really get it. As much as I’m a self-proclaimed PbtA nut, I’d be very interested in a similar system that does a little “more.”

@Michael About mortality, I don’t actually think I’ve seen a character straight up die, so fair enough on that front. I do get the impression that harm, like stress/trauma, tends to build up over time no matter what, so I guess it was more the assumption that it would have to overcome someone eventually. I understand harm can be brought down with downtime activities, but if I remember the math on that, it’s something that probably takes multiple downtimes to fill the healing clock (so you’re carrying that harm over for a job or two), and the clock resets if you get hurt again before it’s finished. And with baseline two downtime activities, you’re probably destressing, healing, and that’s it for you that round. When I played we didn’t have much money so paying to top healing off or do more activities didn’t seem like a valid option, but maybe that becomes less of an issue over time.

@yoshi Being much more willing to spend stress and even take traumas than take harm is good advice for that! The idea of a character “trauma-ing out” does bother me a little bit too, but maybe this is another thing that really just doesn’t happen fast enough to be an issue in most games?

I have read the book and seen that it suggests that most of these aspects are things you can tune for your own game, but that’s almost part of what makes me uncomfortable with it? Part of me likes how much you can make the system work just right for your game, but it also makes me feel like if you don’t have that ‘system mastery’, or at least decent comfort level, you’re kind of twisting in the wind a bit on what the ‘right’ balance for these things is.

It may become a moot point as I get more comfortable with the system, but at least when I’m newly coming to it, it’s something that I’d feel a lot more ‘stable’ with if there were clear inputs and outputs, like “things have X HP, an attack like this does Y harm,” etc. Again, not to say that this makes it a bad system or that it doesn’t work well, but that’s my discomfort with it.

I think it’s a similar issue with position/effect feeling daunting. I understand that it’s basically making explicit something that is implicit in most game design (even my beloved PbtA), but, well… in those games, it’s just that, implicit. It’s something that goes unspoken. By bringing it forward as an active consideration, it starts to become a “wellllll is this factor an issue? Is THIS factor an issue?? Is it REALLY standard?? It’s kind of a different situation than the last time we had a standard effect, so–!” It all feels so… nebulous?

And I mean I really do get what you’re all saying about just… don’t worry so much about it… and just assuming risky/standard unless it really needs to be something else. That is good advice and I’ll try to keep it in mind =P
But that’s where my mind tends to go when looking at the position/effect system.

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#8

I agree with @Airk’s point that you can assume Standard/Risky positioning until prompted to shift it.

Regarding having the Coin to recover, I love that the rules say this:

GM, definitely don’t screw around with the players when it comes to the payoff. Don’t say that the client lied and there’s no reward. Or that the meeting for the payment is actually a trap, or whatever. These types of things are staples of crime fiction, but in Blades , the PCs have enough problems coming at them from every direction already. When it comes to getting paid, just give them what they earned.

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#9

I think you’re really overthinking it. The game flows very naturally in play – both in terms of Position/Effect and “How hard do you want this to be?” I mean, if you don’t like how something went – or even how something LOOKS like it’s going to go, you can adjust the dial then and there. This isn’t something to lose sleep over.

#10

In most FitD games, you play criminals. Safe, comfy criminals aren’t interesting, so if you’re playing safe and comfy … the game’s not going to be interesting. Manage risks the way a criminal would: Play for the short term motivations, and you will find the game has your back.

There’s something clever going on under the surface of FitD in that it creates an illusion of danger to boost the tension of scenes. Stress/trauma is a highly manageable, slowly accumulating meter that actually accelerates your ability growth. It’s designed to look and feel far more threatening than it actually is. You’re a third of the way there in understanding that the narrative is not dependent on individual characters, but seeing through the veil on the stress meter is the big thing.

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#11

Blockquote In most FitD games, you play criminals.

Which is why I wasn’t really able to ever fully understand the system until I played Band of Blades, where I didn’t have to play someone I didn’t like.

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#12

And let me be the person who says: it’s totally cool if you don’t ever really get it, or enjoy it. I don’t know that I’ll see an iteration of it that wows me enough I’d take on the cognitive load of GMing it. I will literally never recommend any FitD game to someone as their first RPG. It’s definitely Advanced Gaming, and it’s OK if it never fully clicks.

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#13

Position/Effect comes pretty quickly because you’re probably doing it subconsciously when you GM any rpg. It’s the same concept as setting a DC or saying that your puny sword isn’t going to do much damage to a dragon’s thick scales.

Also most of the time it’s Risky Position and Standard Effect. In the book they say you can just play it that way when you first start. As you get experience you’ll get a feel for when it’s Desperate or when you’ll have Limited effect.

As others have said, being able to manage Stress and Resisting at the right time is key in my opinion.

Here’s a quick reference guide I made:

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#14

I’m so glad that someone did say this though, because I’ve worried that this might be me, and it kinda makes me feel like “what’s wrong with me?” and that’s pretty silly.

I’ve read Blades as well as Scum & Villainy and listened to some actual plays, and while I think I would love to play a FitD game, I don’t think I’d want to run one, because it does just seem like too much for me to keep track of. I stopped running D&D because of the cognitive load, and found that PbtA stuff really tends to be about perfect for me in terms of what I can handle and do well with. It scares me that FitD stuff seems comparatively so fiddly–maybe not as much as D&D, and certainly not as much as, say, Shadowrun or whatever, but it still seems like an awful lot to keep track of.

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#15

In my admittedly limited experience (playing some Blades on a forum and running a few ftf sessions of S&V), I think the load is lower on the GM than on the players.

The players have to manage and keep track of their stress, harm, equipment, coin, projects, heat, turf/ship/etc, and abilities, on top of the regular gameplay where you’re scrambling for dice and trying to be smart about fictional positioning.

Meanwhile, the GM can focus almost entirely on the fiction. You set position and effect when the players want to do something, declare comsequences, and set up clocks and… that’s about it, mechanically. You do a lot of translating the fiction into mechanics, but like with position/effect there is typically a very limited number of boxes to put things into.

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#16

@jimlikesgames I’d love to hear more about what you find cognitively difficult about Blades. My experience with it is that it’s pretty light to run, and that you can build up complexity over time, so that it never quite gets overwhelming. The thing I have the hardest time with is the faction game, and keeping the world constantly moving and living in the background. There was definitely a learning curve with setting position and effect, but since that’s a negotiation with my players, it felt very much like a shared burden we were carrying together, and we ultimately found our balance.

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#17

Hmm. Again, to haven’t run or played it yet, so maybe it just seems worse to me than it really is?

That said, I do think we should remember that different aspects of running (or playing) a game are carried differently by different people. What feels easy and well-supported to one may take up too much bandwidth for another. I guess I just want to make sure we are all taking that into consideration. A couple of comments in this thread do seem to be on the borderline as far as that goes.

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#18

Oh, sure. I should have been more clear that I’m just relating my own experience.

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#19

I should have clarified myself–I don’t think anything you said crosses that line. I found your response very helpful!

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#20

I hadn’t actually thought about it in those terms before reading this thread so thank you for getting me there!

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