Should We Monetize? If So, How?

#1

Hey everyone, hope this topic belongs here.

I’ve seen a lot of mixed reactions, both here and other places online to the concept of trying to make money off of RPGs. Minor TMI but my financial situation isn’t exactly stable all the time, so indulging in this hobby that is so very important to me is a time investment that I could arguably be using to improve my situation instead somehow, so the ability to monetize my RPG time is something that I would love to do. It would give me the clear mind to spend time on this activity, playing and GMing, but I also don’t want to seem like the person running into things just to make money off of them.

I have been playing and GMing for 7+ years, I have recently started dabbling with game design, and I’ve been consuming TONS of podcast media for a while, so it’s not about jumping in and trying to get money out of people. I’m curious what peoples’ takes are on this, less in a “please tell me what to do” kind of way, and more in a “what are your thoughts on the matter so that I may read them and have a better idea of what I think” kind of way.

Options and My Thoughts On Them:
GM For Hire:
I think this is great honestly, if done correctly. A “money back if you didn’t enjoy session 1” policy seems like a must, and just generally good customer service if you’re going to use it as a stream of income. I’ve seen a lot of contraversy about this, but if there exists demand for your service and people are willing to pay for your time it allows you to invest a lot more time into it, and it’s a consensual agreement between willing adults, it should be fine. The downside is you have to be confident enough with your GM skills to make it worth peoples’ while…and that’s not somewhere I currently am.

Making and Selling a System:
This is also interesting. Making it “pay what you can” is a show of good faith, but less reliable, especially if you put a lot of time into it. If you want to get an artist does it come out of pocket and you just sort of hope people contribute enough to cover it? Charging a flat rate seems weird, especially if you’re not established, but then do you have to compromise on art? I know friends that do art but I would want them to be compensated for their work. Do you just give them a cut of what you earn? It seems logistically complicated on that front, AND you have to be confident you made a game that isn’t a clone of something that exists and is something that people will like, which, again, for an inexperienced person is kind of intimidating.

Doing a Podcast + Patreon:
Again, interesting but I would feel weird advertising a patreon out the gate, and a podcast requires a LOT of commitment to record, edit, upload on schedule that can be hard to justify spending that much time on. You also need to record something you are satisfied with, with people who have similar goals from the gameplay to yours, make something that people will want to listen to, and then somehow gain a following.

Acceptable answers include:

  • You’re overthinking this, just go with the flow and take opportunities as they come up
  • If you can’t justify it right now then put it on the backburner and come back to it when you can afford to invest heavier time into a hobby
  • None of the above are good options and heres why: (etc. etc.)

To be clear, I am not looking for a “Here’s how you get rich doing tabletops”, I am interested in gauging how others in the community (at least the Gauntlet community) think about monetization in the tabletop world, how one would go about it “ethically” in the community, and whether or not I am severely overthinking this! Thanks for your time!

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#2

Making and selling is talked about here:

My take, based on discussions here and elsewhere, is that it’s unlikely that this hobby will net you money through publishing. If you self publish and you’re not an established author, chances of selling are low in the market overcrowded due to democratization of dtp tools (not complaining though, more tools is always good). If you find a publisher to sell product to, you can get 2-20c per word (probably in the lower range) and if you’re lucky/good/stars align extra on a numbers sold.

GMing for money seems like an interesting option. I’d use such a service but GM/ref would have to be known to be good (even if in smaller circles). IDK how good of a time investment for you this would be and if appeal is broad enough.

As for podcast/patreon, it probably boils down to recognition once again. There’s a large number of well known folks with patreon accounts and a finite amount of money people can invest in this hobby. Why you and not some other person? Unless you have a compelling answer (you very well may!) once again I don’t think you’re going to make money.

And making quality podcast is not easy. I recorded and produced 150 podcast episodes about video games, 90mins long each on average. Either you spend time in prep or in post-production (once you’re proficient it’s around 1-2h of extra work for each 1/2h of audio recorded; much more when you’re starting: it took me over 4h to produce first episode which run for about 45mins). Very few people can just wing it and achieve a high quality of content.

So if you’re betting on some extra income, sure, this can be done but numbers aren’t going to overwhelm you I’m afraid.

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#3

I think it’s incredibly difficult to make a living off of the hobby, but if you’re trying to recoup some costs it’s more doable though still can be difficult.
At this point it looks like selling on itch.io and submitting to content calls are the most viable paths until you have more recognition. Itch for the Independence (no one else can stop you from publishing) and passivity (once it’s made you don’t have to put more work into an item), and publishing calls for the guaranteed paycheck if your submission is accepted.

There’s a couple barriers to both. The main thing is, the more recognition you have the more people will want to publish you and the more your games will sell and you’re likely starting from nothing.
I definitely recommend submitting to codex. The other thing that seems like it would help is participating in game jams and contests, for the practice to output better products, for the networking aspect, and to build your portfolio. You have to treat some aspects of it like a job if you want to make money off it, I think, and marketing/networking is definitely a part of that. On the other hand, networking in this hobby tends to be meeting awesome creators, players and GMs, so I don’t see that part as particularly onerous.

As for GM for hire, I’m interested in the concept and think it could work, but it’s hard to gauge the market. I’m not sure if a meat space boots on the ground or online approach would be better for it, but I think both have potential depending on your location/community tie ins. I’ve also thought of potentially a “introduction to ttrpgs” style thing where you teach a group to play and possibly mentor a GM as a service, but have no idea how that would work out.

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#4

I think the thread @dominik linked has a pretty good run down of the various opinions on monetization.

TLDR mine is that the current market is oversatured and undervalued; you should be able to make a living from creating/running games. That is not the same as saying you must make money when you make games but I think it’s harmful to shame or dismiss people who want to make money making games. IMO it’s a subtle flex of privelege to insist game making should only be a hobby, it implies only people with enough of a support system to do it for free should be doing it, and if you care about diversity and representation in the community of creators that’s kind of a driver for why the space has been historically white and male.

I guess that wasn’t much of a TLDR :stuck_out_tongue: I’m just surprised and kinda frustrated at how much push back I saw at saying people should be able to make a living wage by doing something they love.

On a different subject I’d be interested to hear from folks on how different Patreon structures work. I’ve seen ttrpg patreons that charge per project vs. monthly and I think each has it’s own strengths and weaknesses. Is it possible through Patreon to set up a system where you charge monthly but all members receive discounts equal to their subscription cost on your products? I’ve been trying to think of a way to “justify” the cost for patrons because the pay-per-project model is not conducive to large scale games. I figure you could also do some sort of Discord group where patrons get access to beta versions and have input on projects but I suspect that type of community management is beyond the scope of what some people want to do.

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#5

Thanks for all your inputs folks, and thanks for the link to the other thread! Recognition is definitely a big factor, contests and calls are an excellent point for starting out! It boils down to: if people see you and are willing to help support you, then it’s fine.

Preach, I was poetry snapping when I was reading this.

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#6

I think it’s important to draw the line between “You should be able to make a living doing this” and “You CAN make a living doing this.”; Because I 100% support the former as an idea, but I 100% disagree with the latter as a fact. As far as I can tell, you have a better chance of earning a living wage by being in a band or on a sports team than you do by creating RPGs. That’s not me taking some sort of moral or ethical stance, it’s just me looking at the raw practicalities of the situation.

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#7

There’s no ethical way to be a capitalist.

That is: By definition if you are extracting wealth from a community for the purposes of, I dunno, paying rent, you are treating that community as an object to your own ends rather than an end in itself.

That being said: We all operate under capitalism. We all have to pay rent, buy groceries and clothes, and occasionally medicate our anxiety caused from capitalism working as intended.

Which also means: If you can make money this way, do so. It’s no worse than any other way to make money, and maybe better than a lot of them. But, be very very aware of how it changes your relationships.

Frankly, I think making money – or even breaking even – from RPGs is tremendously difficult. It’s unsteady income at best, and its likely easier to get a boring office job with benefits. I’d bet that, after costs, the majority of professional RPG developers are paying themselves below minimum wage.

I’ve seen RPG community leaders, authors, etc become estranged from the community due to the issue of money. And I’ve seen the reverse. The difference seems to come from constant and deliberate practice – money is a poisoning influence that wrecks our relationships, and that can be overcome but it takes constant effort.

There’s a few folk on this forum who I patreon, for instance, who continue to engage ethically with their communities. I admire that and don’t think I could do it.

So, how do you do it ethically? Very, very carefully.

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#8

I don’t entirely agree with this section, if youre some giant company (like in the mobile game industry) spitting out content JUST to leech money off of the community then yes, you’re right.

But if you approach it in a “hey I would love to do this but I can’t unless it helps support me to some degree” and people are able and willing to pay for games/GMing/whatever so you can keep contributing cause they like what you do, isn’t that ethical?

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#9

There’s a thread on that as well with a take that you’re either capitalist or a community member.

TBH I disagree with this and support your stance. It’s selfish and shortsighted to claim that you’re bound to give in order to really be part of the community. This is a POV of someone who takes and likely is not your customer (so why bother?)

I see this attitude a lot in communities where output is perceived as art and not engineering. You won’t tell software developer to write software for free (some do, hence OSS) and you sure won’t go to an architect to design a house or bridge for free (some do that for their communities though). But music? Easy. Drawing/painting/photography? I’m not paying, you’ll include this in your portfolio.

It is completely fair for people to charge for their content what they want and it’s not unfair to anyone that they do it. They often can and do contribute in many ways that’s either beneficial to everyone but them or are mutualy beneficial.

It’s just that, again, monies don’t grow on trees and it’s hard to get through and make it. So I wouldn’t even bet on breaking even. Few do.

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#10

How much money do you want to make? I’ve had an unusual and so far successful time as a designer, but it’s not proving all that lucrative.

Amazing Tales (www.amazing-tales.net) has sold around 9000 copies (print on demand, print and PDF), plus assorted supplements. That’s a lot for an indie game. It’s intentionally priced at a ‘value’ price point to drive volume. It takes a lot of my time. I think the profit works out at around $700 a month. Not nothing, but if I wasn’t doing this from a position of enormous privilege it wouldn’t constitute anything I could live on.

In contrast I wrote a scenario for Zweihander. It’s been the best selling product in their community library for months (although my crown may have slipped, something that looks rather good came out yesterday). Total income since May, about $250.

Based on my experience I’d say that attempting to support yourself through RPG writing is a big gamble. Equivalent to launching a startup into an industry with a small market and lots of competition. If that sounds like the sort of thing you’d do, go for it!

But if you’re looking for some supplemental income writing for other systems is probably the way to go. The Zweihander scenario doesn’t make much money, but it didn’t take a lot of work, and once you’ve done one the next one is easier. The Zweihander market is pretty small, but if you’re interested in writing 5E stuff you’re probably going to do better. There’s a ton of competition in the DMs guild, but if you can write decent modules, collections of encounters, lists of magic items, random tables etc. you might be able to turn your hobby into a supplemental income of a few hundred bucks a month. And you might even have fun doing it :smile:

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#11

The only thing I’d suggest when deciding whether to monetize is to go in with a clear view of your expectations and what you enjoy. If you end up not meeting even your minimum expectations, will you still have fun with your hobby? This thing where the extrinsic motivation (money) crowds out the intrinsic motivation (fun) can be a real problem, as I’ve personally experienced in other hobbies.

That said, people should be able to stabilize their financial situation using RPGs, or even make a full living at them. Some folks have been able to achieve their goals and still enjoy the games for their own sake, and I hope you can be one of them if that’s what you want.

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#12

I’ve got only two things to add.

  1. 9k copies for a ttrpg book is a lot as you’ve mentioned. A good book on programming is expected to push round 10-20k. Market is much larger (price point is set higher too, granted) and there aren’t that many books on any given topic compared to, say, number of OSR systems.

  2. Your example actually shows that one could play the long game and start making money at some point. But it’s still a gamble and requires a lot of discipline. Here’s an interesting case from a video game indie developer doing what could be profitable in a long run when applied to ttrpg:

#13

Background: I don’t have any experience with RPG publishing but I’ve spent a lot of time in bands making self-released music, so some things there probably translate. I’ve also helped friends get some businesses off the ground (some more successful than others) so hopefully you’ll find some of this useful.

It’s great that you’re asking these questions now. Given your position (you enjoy this stuff but also you need to try to earn a living), I think there are two basic strategies you can try.

The first is to keep working your day job (or jobs) and do the work you are inspired to do (whether writing, podcasting, GMing, etc.) with the hope that maybe you can build it up to be something that supports you financially over time. If you go this route I would not expect it to be profitable in the short term – most businesses take several years to become profitable so you’ll probably need to spend some time building up a back catalogue (either of podcasts, articles, modules, whatever) and a following to get yourself out there.

In this scenario you’ll need to consider how much time you can afford to spend on the hobby without cutting into your ability to do other work (and without burning yourself out), but you won’t have a specific deadline or point where you have to give up and quit if you aren’t successful yet. You may also decide that you prefer to keep this as a hobby and that trying to make money this way is too difficult.

The alternative is to pour more resources in now and try to make this your full-time job. By taking big risks and pouring as much time and other resources into it as possible you have a better chance of making something really polished and excellent and standing out. This might involve passing up other paying work or else working overtime (probably unsustainable in the long-term) to try to get this enterprise off the ground quickly. This is how businesses in other fields often start: after coming up with a business plan, the owner will incorporate, use loans or other investment to get things off the ground, and have a grand opening with plenty of advertising and publicity.

In this scenario you will need to become profitable more quickly since you won’t be able to keep up this level of work/investment in the long term. It’s much riskier but would possibly give you a better shot of having things take off (for example you might have a marketing budget for advertising, to hire artists, editors, etc.). You would want to do a lot of research before committing to this plan (including talking to other people in the space if possible) and come up with a realistic business plan of estimated costs, timelines, and possible scenarios (including failure).

Personally, I think the first option is much safer: by not investing heavily up front you have less to lose if things don’t work out, and that you won’t lose money on the venture. It also gives you some space to make mistakes before you really take any big leaps. On the other hand, it’s much harder to make money using the first approach (since I think most small indie people in the space are using a similar strategy) so it reduces the chances of this really taking off since you may have less to differentiate yourself. As others have said the indie RPG publishing space is fairly saturated, so it may be hard to differentiate a low-cost by a new author. I don’t know as much about GM-for-hire so that could be more promising, but it’s probably worth trying to find someone who’s done this already to talk to.

The biggest question (which neither approach answers) is: How will you differentiate yourself, and what would it take for you as a consumer to invest in someone else’s podcast/patreon/GMing/game system/whatever?

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#14

Most story authors that I know would quite like to be able to do it as a full time job, but they have an actual full time job while they write in their spare time because they love to create (and presumably hope that they will be successful). For every JK Rowling who becomes a roaring success there must be thousands who get some of their books into print, and derive some satisfaction from that, but are never able to make it their full time job.

The bar to entry is so much lower now thanks to the internet; it doesn’t just rely upon a big publisher picking you up or nothing. There are several avenues for self publishing. That means that now is a better time for dipping your toe into the water, exercising your creative muscles and putting some stuff out there. With a combination of skill, luck and hard work it might be able to turn into a full time job as some people have done. Even if it doesn’t, I think there is value in creating stuff and getting it into peoples hands :slight_smile:

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#15

This is not ethics agreed upon by most ethicists or philosophers.

“Is capitalism ethical? As compared to what?” asks moral philosopher Peter Singer.

““So far, none of the alternatives tried have done nearly as good a job as capitalism of keeping most of the population out of poverty and even providing them with a reasonable level of comfort…Until we have evidence that there is another system that can do better, the sensible course seems to be to stick with capitalism and attempt to deal with its flaws rather than to abandon it”, Singer adds.”

Or, put another way, paraphrasing Winston Churchhill on democracy, “Capitalism is the worst economic system…except for all the rest.”

You are clearly mistaking unbridled capitalism with a well regulated capitalistic system with an embedded social safety net. These features need not be and should not be mutually exclusive.

No philosopher in history has argued that selling pop art to pay your bills is unethical. If your art sells and gives a very affordable and otherwise ethical and creative form of entertainment, then you could even be considered to be improving the quality of life for people. That’s pretty high on the ethical scale to most philosophers.

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#16

If I were looking to make money from the RPG hobby, I might look at some of the following:

  • leveraging skills from another field to provide something that is in demand within the community

For instance, if you’re a good programmer, you can write software for game publisher websites, modules for Roll20, or whatever other thing would be useful and welcome.

If you’re an editor, you could start editing others’ game texts. If you’re an artist, start making art for RPG products.

Help others in the community by offering your skills. (Even if it’s for free at first, depending on what you do and what you can afford.)

  • establish and maintain a strong online presence - podcasts, videos, a blog, etc

Provide valuable content for free, regularly.

The more well known you become (so long as you can avoid conflict and drama!), the easier it will be for you to eventually monetize something you do.

It’s probably easier to make money by making YouTube videos reviewing new D&D modules (or streaming D&D games!) than by publishing a new game of your own. Selling a game is tough. If you can put together a good video every week summarizing or reviewing the latest episode of Critical Role or Relics & Rarities, you might find a niche with an almost guaranteed audience.

Once you have that kind of clout, you can sell just about anything, because people will have an interest in supporting YOU as a brand/product. If you have thousands of followers, you can probably get a significant number to sign up for a Patreon or to buy a book you wrote, almost no matter what that content is.

  • interact with children and educational opportunities

Given that our hobby is pretty easy to get into for free, adults can be hesitant about spending money on a product.

However, both parents and organizations fully expect to spend money on opportunities for children. They just need to be sold on the “product”; they will not expect anything for free.

Given the current popularity of D&D, offering opportunities for people to learn to play and for children to enjoy this rather “mysterious” hobby seems like a good move.

I know one of the podcasters in my city runs an educational D&D program through a local museum, for example. Parents can send their children to play D&D and learn about history at the same time.

Foreign language learning/practice could be another good opportunity: “learn to speak English by playing RPGs!”

These are activities and opportunities that people fully expect to pay for, which means you’re not struggling just to convince people what you do is worth monetizing in the first place.

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#17

If you’re a good programmer you’re likely starting from a privileged point and can afford not monetizing or not caring for the income that comes from the monetization of your hobby. Majority of skills that can translate into ttrpg hobby are either low paying ones (editors don’t bath in gold neither do most artists) or paying handsomely and you’re in a position in which you don’t have to monetize (you still can, obviously). Providing valuable content for free, regularly or not, is also not necessarily a viable strategy if you’re not already in a good spot fiscally.

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#18

That’s true; programmers are sufficiently in demand that perhaps an out of work programmer looking to make some extra cash is an unlikely example.

Still, if you’re looking for ways to contribute to the community and to become a recognizable entity, this can be a good way to become involved.

It can also be a way to justify the time you spend on being involved in the community while looking for (or doing) other work.

The point is to figure out what monetizable skills you have and to leverage them.

Edited to add: doing things for free isn’t always a net loss. You can make some of the challenges involved in this kind of work easier to navigate by exchanging labour. Maybe you need art for your game and your friend needs help with video editing. Neither of you has enough money to pay the other; by offering a trade exchange, you can both create a better product “for free”.

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#19

This is an excellent point, actually. Barter is probably the best approach here.

#20

I don’t think it’s a solid enough point to counter your comment that working at net loss is sustainable or feasible for many people. Barter trading for services will be useful inside the community, but your landlord isn’t going to accept editing services in lieu of rent

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