Silver City Legends - A weird west RPG with playing cards

Hello All,

I’ve been working on this game for most of the year and i’m looking for some feedback.

The Pitch: Players are larger than life heroes in the west in the style of Paul Bunyon, John Henry, and Calamity Jane with a bit of magic thrown in. The game uses a hand of 5 cards to modify actions through Plays based on the four houses in a deck as well as a unique player focused advancement system.

This draft includes the basic rules of play and a few archetype (class) options.

I’m looking for peoples thoughts on the balance of the basic play in the game as well as the powers offered by the archetypes. I occasionally struggle with the math around some of the Plays so I would appreciate any feedback folks have around that. I also want to know how folks feel about the flavor built into the core of the game and if it looks like something fun to play.

This is the first time I’ve gotten this far in developing a game and i’m excited to share it.

You can find a link to the Google Doc HERE.

Soon I hope to share more information around the setting as well as scenario building and GM/player best practices.

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Is there anything specific about the design you’re interested in having people provide feedback for? What do you think works best? What parts aren’t working out quite the way you’d like them to?

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One of the very specific things i’m interested in getting feedback on is the mechanics behind Unopposed Plays. I’m not sure if the 1 in 4 chance of succeeding with every card works well.

I also want folks opinions on the powers. That is where I’m feeling weakest its hard to keep them balanced in my head and I’m also not sure how much I should be worried about overlap.

I’m really proud of the advancement system as well as the bet your life mechanic. I worked hard on getting marks stamps and brands to work as well.

Thanks!

The rules are clearly redacted and flow. Only the first mention of Legend is awkward. It comes too early.

The various types of challenges and wounds are a bit bland. Maybe it’s a case where beginning with a colourful example, and then abstracting the mechanic from it would be more engaging.

I am a bit worried that the tone be lost in the challenges rules, wound rules, and some powers. A covert gunslinger ?! When tutelar figures, like Paul Bunyon, can’t be simulated ?! That’s too weird a west for my taste. Like it’s Duskvol west. Even if that were the intent, I would force a tighter aesthetic. Your mechanics working for generic challenges doesn’t mean it’s how the game will shine. It’s full of “succeed” and “how to do it”. It lacks themes and motivations. Of course, Aspects will bring them, and at player’s convenience : but I’d plant the seeds right in the challenges. With the guns, with the fists, in the wilderness, those are the sort of challenges I’d need to distinguish.

Overall, I love your mechanics : simple, with some randomness and a lot of style in card drawing ; Aspects to go wherever the table wants, and an elegant economy of Marks…

The Fate curves, really fit perfectly. See : Fate points to spend would make for a rather uninteresting mechanic. But the implementation, culminating with the last sunset : this is brilliant !

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Thank you very much for reading!

I’m thinking of re skinning to covert to something more like “Scoundrel”. There are a couple of other archetypes in the works that fit the Americana flavor a bit better (Survivalist/Frontier and Quick).

I’m wondering if you have any further thoughts on how to plant more thematic elements into the “challenges” (the plays?).

I really appreciate your thoughts! The mark economy and the legend advancement weren’t something i had in mind while setting out to make the game. I’m so glad i figured them out and glad I got to share them!

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Further thoughts… not really : what you want the game to be about, if you make it the categories of challenges, it will inform and shape players expectations.

You kept the stats generic, fine : players can do whatever they want (although Powers contradict this…) But you can still make the Plays specific (= thematic). Note I am pushing my “narrative” agenda here ; that’s something maybe you don’t want in your game.

A challenge being opposed or unopposed is something who really cares about ? Either it’s a difficulty level or a NPC rank, it’s always the Reaper hat pulling a target number, and a cards contest. To me it’s a place where you could paint “Tall tale” in big letters. Instead of relying on your players to carry the burden of aesthetic choice, you can state something about the genre you work on.

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I agree with DeReel that the general flow of the document is pretty good. The complexity of the rules is also pretty solid (i.e. not too complex and not too light to be of any help) and most of the comments I have are nitpicks, really. I hope they are of som use despite that. Here’s what bugs me.

In Static Play you state first that “GM sets aside their hand, shuffles the deck and draws a number of cards equal to the value of the hazard”, which seems to indicate that GM’s 5+1 hand is put aside (deferred) and he constructs a new hand with N cards where N is the hazard level. But then your example states that “GM has set the Hazard (…) at a 4. The GM draws 5 cards from the GM deck and places them face down on the table”.

Why did he draw 5 cards if HL was 4? Where did the HL come from? The first part is probably a matter of a typo but the second one is something that should be explained before you get into the Static Play, right before the “Each type of Play represents a different type of situation” part. Some general guide for selecting the HL would make sense there (e.g.: Hazard is represented by a Hazard Level and Hazard Category. Selecting category is up to GMs discretion and Level depends on the Play resolution. For Static Play GM selects HL from X to Y based on ABC. For Contested Play HL is determined by the characteristics of the opposing NPC and his hand, and so on…).

Another part that’s missing from the description is that other than HL, GM sets the hazard type (or action type) upfront (at least for some types of the challenges). This can be drawn from examples and earlier suit description but I feel like this should be spelled out explicitly.

I’d also tighten up some of the terminology: there’s no need to talk about actions and Plays is you could establish early on that actions are known as Plays and that there are four categories of Plays that can be resolved in three ways. I know that this may be tricky and wording will have to be really carefully crafted so that you don’t use generic terms like “type” to denote both category and resolution, but it could be worth it. Alternatively you could make Action into a proper term that denotes the Category (suit). But either way explicit, unambiguous terms always help.

Another thing that’s not worded very well, IMO, is the fact that for Static Play, all of the cards drawn by GM count. You’re saying “cards spent by the GM need not be of the same house” but stronger wording would probably work better here: all of the cards revealed by the GM count, regardless of their suit. I would avoid using “cards spent” phrase here too, GM isn’t spending anything, the cards were drawn for this conflict alone.

In Contested PlayGM shuffles the GM deck and draws cards until their hand is full” and it’s not clear what this means. Earlier on you’ve stated that “GM draws 5 cards plus 1 (…) referred to as the GM hand” but not only is this “plus 1” not clear (why not just state that he draws 6?) but this Play description comes after Static Play where cards were drawn exclusively to resolve the conflict. So… is this the generic hand that he draws for until it’s full or is this something else? So far I’m not sure if there’s a need for persistent GM hand to be honest. Not from the statistics POV at least, there may be an emotional component that’s not clear until the game is played though.

The description of the Unopposed Play makes it sound pretty much like it’s a Static Play without consequences. Which is fine, but example given (stand on a horse) isn’t really something that has no consequences. If you wall, there’s damage to be had. How is this different from the disarm example from Static Play (other than damage done by an explosion is probably greater than falling face first from a horse)?

I guess what I’m trying to say is that Unopposed Play could be represented as a low HL Static Play and I don’t think that would be that big of a change.

I should also mention that the part where “player places their hand down in front of them” is once again confusing. Is this just a matter of setting permanent hand aside like what GM does in Static Play? Or am I reading this wrong?

I’ve also noticed that it’s not clear whether I can indefinitely draw and burn during Play. Your state that “At any point a player can choose to burn cards from their hand” which I would exploit to that end. I’d clarify on the matter to close this loophole.

Also it’s probably good to stick to either Hazard Value or Hazard Level and not mix them in the text.

I only skimmed through the rest of the document but I’ll make sure to get back to it tomorrow. HTH!

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Thanks for your feedback!

A couple of the things you have mentioned are definitely typos. The Hazard was meant to be 4 with the GM drawing 4 cards. The GM drawing “5 cards plus 1” is just meant to be 6 (used to be plus 1 for each player but that was a bit much to manage.)

I plan on adding guidelines for creating hazard levels in the further GM rules. Part of creating hazards will be based on marks, stamps, and brands placed on a location/situation.

I think you may be right about the action terminology. I’m thinking of describing like this: A player making an attack makes a (clubs) Action and the GM has them resolve that Action with a Static Play.

Unopposed plays are a big sticking point for me. I wanted something to represent a low stakes action. I felt like if a player has a high rank in something then the GM using one card for a hazard its a waste of time. The unopposed play was my solution to that. I’m not sure about keeping it going-forward, i need to do some more work on it definitely.

I will take steps to clarify drawing in the rules Players only draw when they make a Static or Contested Play. They may burn whenever they want, but doing so brings them closer to having to shuffle their discard pile and gain exhaustion.

Your feedback was very helpful! I’m going to fix the typos that I can easily rectify and think about the rest as I go forward.

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About Unopposed play, the standard solution nowadays is to set a high bar for entry : there’s no contest for low stake action, so you can’t drain the GM hand drop by drop. That’s a win-win on the narrative fantasy front and it leaves the game challenge pit clean for when it really matters.

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Once again I agree with DeReel - there’s no point in having inconsequential Plays. Either drop them or let players bump up the stakes. You could potentially make them into Contested Play with the twist that players set up the opposition themselves.

Player: I want to jump on a horse back.
GM: That’s not a Play at all.
Player: Ok, but I want to make it from a running position to impress Billy.
GM: That’s 1 spades for the finesse of this action and 1 hearts to impress.
Player: I want to leave them in awe though.
GM: 1 spades and 2 hearts then.

This is something I forgot to ask yesterday: is there always a single play category (e.g. just clubs) or can this be slightly more complex?

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The Plays are always meant to be a single house, but some of the powers allow you to use cards from other houses to aid you.

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Hello Everyone,

I’ve updated Silver City Legends to an Alpha Draft, and after a little playtesting ready to show it again.

I’m looking for feedback on the overall structure of this document as well as what peoples thought are on the Plays, Marks system, and overall feel of the game.

Thank you!

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Hello All!

Ive been play testing and working on this game for a couple years now and I will be brining it to a convention for the first time this summer!

I got some great feedback from this community the first time around and I really appreciated it.

If you would like to take a look at Silver City Legends the public version is available HERE.

The parts I’m looking for feedback on are:

  • Labels: Do the mechanics of Labels (specifically wagering cards for marks and stamps) seem worth the trouble in gameplay?

  • Scrapes and Wounds: Is the scrapes/wounds/resolve system clearly explained?

  • Powers and Archetypes: Do the Archetypes seem exciting and fun to play and do the descriptions of the powers feel unique and tied to the archetypes.

  • General Organization: Is the document clear in the concepts it presents and does it flow well from one subject to another.

If you have any other comments or criticism please feel free to share. I got so much encouragement the last time folks took a look at thus game and I’m really happy with how it has grown.

Thank you!

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One thing I always say is that a boardgame is good if it got index cards to summarize the round.

I think your Quick Play Sheet is excellent. From what I can tell, I understood everything when I read it. Need to compare it to the core rules though, to see if I misunderstood something.

The only thing that confused me was that I had a hard time understanding what Rank was.

  1. Describe your Action. Say what your character does. The LAW will tell you what House of cards to use. The LAW will place a number of cards face down representing the difficulty of the Action. These cards are called the Hazard. The total Value of the Hazard cards is the number you are trying to beat.
  2. Prepare your Hand. Burn unwanted cards from your hand by discarding them and Draw. Whenever you Draw, draw cards from your deck until your hand is full of FIVE CARDS.
  3. Spend your cards. Spend cards from the house that matches your action. The LAW will reveal the Hazard cards and add their Value together to make the Hazard Rank.
  4. Add and compare Ranks. Add the Value of the cards you Spent to your character’s Rank in the House you are using. Compare your total Rank to the Hazard Rank. If your Rank is higher you succeed in your action.

Here is the text, slightly changed. I marked added or changed text in italics. I would also indent THE LAW part in the list.

  1. Describe your Action. Say what your character does.
    The LAW will tell you what House of cards to use. The LAW will place a number of cards face down representing the difficulty of the Action. These cards are called the Hazard. The total Value of the Hazard cards is the number you are trying to beat with your Rank.
    .
  2. … [no change]
  3. Spend your cards. Spend cards from the house that matches your action. The values of these cards will be added to your Rank.
    The LAW will reveal the Hazard cards and add their Values together to make the Hazard Rank.
  4. Compare Ranks. Compare your total Rank to the Hazard Rank. If your Rank is higher you succeed in your action.

I glanced through half of the rules text. Seemed alright, but you did such an excellent job with the summary that I wonder why I’m reading the same thing, but in a longer form. :smiley:

The main complaint I have, and this is something that is in the foundation of your text - the whole structure and presentation - and that is that you tell, instead of show. You write things like …

“The characters you and your fellow players create are people who stand out from the crowd, heroes, scoundrels, or otherwise who seek glory and adventure.”

… where I want to know HOW they stand out. Describe actions, instead of describing the characters.

You state things like …

When you make choices for your character it
may help to keep a few things in mind to keep with
the weird western genre that is the spirit of Silver
City Legends;
● Lean into your legend /…/
● Honor and Deceit matter, but how much? /…/
● Make friends in low places /…/
● Outwit and outplay when you are
outgunned /…/
● Campfire Tales /…/

… but I think this is (OK, not campfire tales, perhaps) something that should be given from the game’s feedback loop - the fruitful void, if you may. The emergence - the result from when all the components (including the participants) interaction with each other - should create this behavior.

I think it’s a solid game—from the little I read—and there are advice in there that I use, but people don’t follow advice - they (sadly) follow game mechanics. That’s why Robin D Laws have a rule that says that if a character is talking about a monster, the monster gains +5 to everything (instead of instructing the players that it ruins the mood if they do that), or a rule that states that if there is a clue then the player can use a investigator skill and automatically succeed (instead of saying that a clue should never be attained through a skill roll because that can stop the game).

I will get back and read more when I have time. If you put this in a GDoc then I can comment straight in the text instead, because it takes effort to copy paste every single bit I want to comment on.

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Thanks for the feedback!

I’ve added a google doc with open comments.

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Hello,
I read the game and it’s clear.

I struggled with some notions:
Guts, Spine and Resolve p12: I believe Guts and Spine are the rank of a card, then a figure I write, then a number of cards. Can you see my brain hurting? If you tell me: you convert the rank of a card into a number of cards, this I can understand. I suggest writing for different mental approaches. Maybe it’s just untyped words here: “A character gains a (number of?) guts or spine cards equal to their rank”. Also, the explanation of the same things on p16 works, so…
By ocontrast Resolve is clearly just a number on my sheet. “A character’s resolve rank is equal to their guts rank plus their spine rank.”

I agree with @Rickard about the fruitful void (provided we put the same concept under this word :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: ) For this reason, I am weary of the 3 gauges, Resolve above the other 2. Labels can make decent Wounds whereas Wounds are easier to count and PLays are more central to the game. This is pretty subjective, and I see how you want to have Duels and a dead’s last shot and stuff, but gauges sure don’t help me saying brilliant weird west things at the table (like being a “Slippery Sly” does) So why do I, as a player, need them (and the doubling of cognitive load), is the right question from my side of the table.

You can find on these forums a game, Leadtown ( hi @Deckard :wave: ), that did something great with Duels, with the sharpest shooters having a look at the cards at the center of the table and then the fastest ones picking the cards first. This lead to everybody trying to read the face of whoever had access to the cards first. I don’t suggest you do the same thing, but for me a mechanic belongs to a game if it brings out the “right” (:thinking: ?) behaviour from the group of players (the fruitful void as a blurry rephrasing of “social dynamic”):
“The LAW readies the Reaper deck (…) A final card (The River(styx)) is drawn and placed with the other. If all players’ hands beat the reaper hand then the character with the winning hand survives”
If you can find a way to make players have an objective interest in squinting and poker facing through this, I’d find it great. Right now, I see randomness and no choice, foreseeing little tension, which tells me either I have missed something or the mechanic does not feel like a duel.

Also, this seems wrong: “When you Burn cards from your hand you may Wager them by adding them to the Hazard.” This makes Wager a category of Burn, which I don’t believe it is. Also, there’s the opportunity for a loophole: if I Burn a card to use my Beastly Instinct, I can Wager it, (MtG: when you sacrifice a creature …)

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Thank you for the critique!
I’m working on making the rules much shorter and converting it to “you” centric language to be more instructional. Writing the quick play sheet, which was originally intended to be a tool for this first open playtest, has shown me I can trim a lot of fat.

Speaking of, do you think the glossary is necessary?

Thank you so much for your feedback!

The issue around guts and spine rank vs guts and spine cards is one I’ve been struggling with a lot. The characters guts or spine rank is just meant to be an indication of how many cards (or tokens) they have on their sheet. These cards are face down and act like a shield before the characters take wounds.

I originally had wounds as a function of labeling. I changed wounds into cards dealt from a wound deck because I liked the physicality of it as well as having a clearer numerical relationship to resolve. I have thought about having wounds also add a stamp but the process of adding a number to a stamp (to associate the reduced resolve with the stamp) really gets confusing especially to write about.

Thank you for pointing out the error with burn/wager. They are meant to be two separate things (though wagering does clear space in the player hand). Definitely going to clarify that.

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I always think a glossary is needed, but as an index. It’s not for the first time reader, but speaking for myself, I read through the glossary (even for my own games) when I haven’t played the game in years. Could be used for a first time reader as a summary of the whole book too.

School books usually have a summary at the end of each chapter, which I always think is helpful.


When it comes to writing the glossary, I always keep all the terminology in a separate sheet, and when the book is finished, I fill out each word with an explanation. I also want to keep track the terminologies so I don’t fall into “terminology sickness”, which is common in Swedish RPGs - where you make up a term to explain another term.

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